Sentencing options - you decide.

Nearly two years for driving a 4WD up a hillside?* How ridiculous! I know of people who have assaulted others that have got less than that.

This guy has been victimised and smacked down because he was cheeky to officialdom. He surely has grounds for appeal against the harshness of the sentence.

* Mt Snowdon would be little more than a pimple on the landscape here. I drive over a hill almost as high every time I go to Golden Bay (Takaka Hill - 2,900 ft).

I agree that the 6 months (first offence) and 10 months (second offence) was far too harsh but then again I'm not able to comment on the time, risk and expense the mountain rescue teams had to go through to get the vehicle back down. There's also the question of trespassing and damage to the mountain railway.

The 6 months for skipping bail and associated asshattery does sound about right to me though.
 
I was too lenient. However, it would not take much prison time to dissuade me from committing a crime, and I may have answered based on that.
In any given population there will be honest people and less honest ones. You have to take into account that many would take a chance that you wouldn't (you read about them every day in the newspaper). 7 years (or 5) for £750M seems incredibly low to me. I know a solicitor who got 4 1/2 years for his part in a £22M fraud in which he personally stood to gain nothing. He probably got a bit more because he was a solicitor and thus in a position of trust but even so.

With time off for good behaviour, the guy who got 5 years will be out just about a year and a half after the guy who drove his vehicle up the mountain, gaining nothing, causing no loss to anybody (except the environment maybe but I don't think that was a feature of the case) but just fooling around and he will serve about a year longer than three snivelling crooks who tried to defraud local taxpayers by planning and presenting a fabricated claim which subverted the legal process and probably cost the London Borough of Haringey a lot of money to defend.
 
Case A: 5 to 10 years (does UK have indeterminate sentences?) - let's say 8.

Case B: 18 months to 2 years. Say 2 years.

Case C: Not a day.

Metullus-: Your answer to 'C' suggests no punishment. Would you mind explaining why? I'd see this as a serious attempt to defraud.
 
Nearly two years for driving a 4WD up a hillside?* How ridiculous! I know of people who have assaulted others that have got less than that.

This guy has been victimised and smacked down because he was cheeky to officialdom. He surely has grounds for appeal against the harshness of the sentence.

* Mt Snowdon would be little more than a pimple on the landscape here. I drive over a hill almost as high every time I go to Golden Bay (Takaka Hill - 2,900 ft).
Right on. And like I said, a railway runs up to the top of the mountain. I have walked down beside that railway. There is wide, grassy path to the side of it with plenty of room for a 4 by 4. Guys who drive away from the cops at high speed, who are a real danger, do not get 22 months. As you said, he was punished for being cheeky. The system should be bigger than that and a short, sharp sentence was all that was required to make the point.
 
Okay, Case A, I am going to guess that whatever jail sentence they got it was a suspended sentence. Maybe 2 years.

Case B, I think driving up Mt. Snowdon is perhaps going to have some environmental laws attached to it. Erm...7 years.

Case C, I think that trying to make fools of the council could end up with a sentence of 15 years.

:) Angry - the answers were posted already. See post no. 45
 
I'm generally well to the liberal end of the political spectrum, but $750m is a huge sum of money that could, for example, save hundreds of affluent First World lives. So while it's by no means exactly equivalent to a couple of hundred counts of murder I think that the criminal penalties should be vaguely equivalent.

For white-collar crime in the eight figure range, life without parole seems quite appropriate to me.

And it was pounds, not dollars, so about $1,250,000,000.
 
I stand by my attitude of no prison for any of them so that there is no question of finding space for long sentences for the three violent females.

For the mortgage fraudsters to get 7 and 5 years with no mention of the recovery of money is the equivalent of I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here. Suffer for a few weeks and get £70,000 or whatever pounds or suffer for a few years and get £750 million.
 
Ok, how about another case:

In Leicester UK, 4 women in a gang beat a random woman until she is unconscious, including kicks to her head. Its all caught on CCTV, no question of guilt.

Sentence?

I remember this one. Bet no-one guesses correctly (and why)....
 
I remember this one. Bet no-one guesses correctly (and why)....

Well I am guessing non-custodial sentences unless the victim sustained some serious, long-term injury. That's not necessarily what I would do but it's what I think will have been done. I will now go and google but keep my researches to myself.

ETA OMG WTF (I googled)
ETA (again) and, reading on, this one is quite outrageous.
 
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Yes, it would not be surprising since much of the money will have gone into property. It's better if you can to get hold of the £750M in cash because property is not very liquid, but that's tricky and also gives rise to security and transport problems and entails complicated arrangements to launder the stuff. But it's definitely worth thinking about if the only down side is 5-7 (in reality 2/12/ to 3 1/2) inside.
 
Well I am guessing non-custodial sentences unless the victim sustained some serious, long-term injury. That's not necessarily what I would do but it's what I think will have been done. I will now go and google but keep my researches to myself.

It should also be pointed out that this was an assault on a random passer by who was targeted for her ethnicity (IIRC for being part of a mixed couple) and subject to racial abuse while being beaten and kicked.
 
Case B (driving up Snowdon)

Three sentences, ordered to run consecutively, totalling 22 months. Much too long. He was sentenced for cocking a snook at the system but did no one any harm and I don't think driving up Snowdon is dangerous either. I have walked down the way he drove up and it's just a long slope.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-21087633

Just to note that the second time the vehicle was parked partially on the roof of the cafe at the top, which is partly underground, and that thousands of pounds in damage was caused to the railway tracks. So while the drive may be relatively easy for a 4x4, he did cause real damage and could potentially have caused a lot more.
Edit: I still agree that 22 months (and a 3 year driving ban) seems rather harsh, especially compared to sentences serious violent crimes often seem to get, but this isn't actually a victimless crime that did no harm.
 
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I agree that case B was dealt with too harshly, but I'm not uncomfortable with the other two.
 
It should also be pointed out that this was an assault on a random passer by who was targeted for her ethnicity (IIRC for being part of a mixed couple) and subject to racial abuse while being beaten and kicked.
I saw the judge rejected the idea it was racially motivated. Seems odd. He also, watching the same film I just saw, thought the assailants might have been partly justified by the actions of the victim's boyfriend. Anyone can watch the film and see the judge had his head up his backside. The boyfriend was remarkably restrained.
 
Just to note that the second time the vehicle was parked partially on the roof of the cafe at the top, which is partly underground, and that thousands of pounds in damage was caused to the railway tracks. So while the drive may be relatively easy for a 4x4, he did cause real damage and could potentially have caused a lot more.
Edit: I still agree that 22 months (and a 3 year driving ban) seems rather harsh, especially compared to sentences serious violent crimes often seem to get, but this isn't actually a victimless crime that did no harm.

I am a bit skeptical about this 'damage to the railway' thing. He was not prosecuted for criminal damage and it isn't obvious how a 4 by 4 would damage a railway anyway. I suspect they could not prove damage found (if any) on the railway had been caused by him, in which case it should not have been a factor in the sentencing. I culled these snippets from the reports:


http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co...-Williams-40/story-17894676-detail/story.html

The court heard that the bill for repairs to the Snowdon mountain railway and recovery of the vehicle following his two ascents in a 4x4 amounted to thousands of pounds.

Note that the costs to the railway are not separated out.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/craig-williams-mount-snowdon-driver-1544494

Williams did not reach the top driving solely on the footpaths, as he claimed, but travelled on the mountain train track that takes passengers to the peak, potentially damaging the points mechanism.
Potentially damaging? What can this mean?

OTOH I read that the air ambulance was scrambled and that is serious imho. That is a service for proper emergencies only and fools who cause vital but limited resources to be wasted should expect to be severely punished. It's funny that this aspect does not feature much in the reporting since it seems by far the worst thing he did. I am upping his sentence to six months. Maybe nine.
 
Case B (driving up Snowdon)

Three sentences, ordered to run consecutively, totalling 22 months. Much too long. He was sentenced for cocking a snook at the system but did no one any harm and I don't think driving up Snowdon is dangerous either. I have walked down the way he drove up and it's just a long slope.
As you were walking, you should have noticed the quite serious erosion on parts of the track. That's the reason people should be heavily discouraged from driving up it. The sentence was fair IMO.
 
Answers to OP Cases A, B and C are in post no. 45

Sure, I just wanted to play the game so I posted after reading only your initial post and not reading any commentary. I like this idea. Let's see more of this sort o'ting in future!:)
Well sure, no problem. In my neck of the woods we get a lot of sentencing decisions that just seem out of line with each other. Hopefully people can collect a few more.

ETA Hey! when can we go public with lobosrul's case of the four female attackers? That's a good one!
 
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As you were walking, you should have noticed the quite serious erosion on parts of the track. That's the reason people should be heavily discouraged from driving up it. The sentence was fair IMO.

I would agree if there were any mention of erosion in the sentencing remarks or any charge of, say, aggravated trespass or criminal damage etc. As a matter of law, he can only be sentenced for the crimes of which he was convicted.
 

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