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Merged moon hoax not / debunking video

I liked that astronaut's way of debunking these morons. Right in the face. That's the problem with the laws of civil discussion these days. You have to tolerate all sorts of crazy people.

EDIT: I'm advised that it was Buzz Aldrin, and he punched Bart Sibrel on the jaw, not in the face. Still, a hero of our times.
 
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I liked that astronaut's way of debunking these morons. Right in the face. That's the problem with the laws of civil discussion these days. You have to tolerate all sorts of crazy people.

EDIT: I'm advised that it was Buzz Aldrin, and he punched Bart Sibrel on the jaw, not in the face. Still, a hero of our times.
It's too bad Buzz didn't knock Barty Boy's sorry *** out. :D
 
Is it just me or is the video not working any more?

It was an interesting video, but I didn't think it was particularly useful as a debunking. The point he claims to be making is that the technology to fake the videos didn't exist back then, but he then explains exactly how it could have been done with the existing technology and just says it would have been difficult and required purpose-built equipment. OK, and? We're talking about an alleged conspiracy involving thousands of the world's most intelligent people and billions of dollars in funding. And I'm supposed to believe that they couldn't have faked a video because it would have required using larger film reels than usually used commercially? Yeah, no.

There's some useful information explaining how it would have been more difficult to fake than a lot of people might think, but it's a very long way from the conclusive debunking it presents itself as.
 
Not one to play devils advocate here but dont we normally poo poo Youtube evidence if provided by a CTer?
 
Is it just me or is the video not working any more?
Works for me.

It was an interesting video, but I didn't think it was particularly useful as a debunking. The point he claims to be making is that the technology to fake the videos didn't exist back then, but he then explains exactly how it could have been done with the existing technology and just says it would have been difficult and required purpose-built equipment. OK, and? We're talking about an alleged conspiracy involving thousands of the world's most intelligent people and billions of dollars in funding. And I'm supposed to believe that they couldn't have faked a video because it would have required using larger film reels than usually used commercially? Yeah, no.

Someone else told me these numbers, and I'm just going to steal them and post them here:

A standard 35mm reel is 1000 feet. To fake and overcrank some continuous sequences would take 5,300 feet (47 minutes) of film on Apollo 11 and 10,600 ft on later missions, all on one reel.

Movie makers who have later attempted takes of similar lengths have had to shoot on video and later dub it to film. Video technology to do this did not exist in 1969, and film technology to do this still does not exist today.
 
But...but...but...
Borman poop!
[/P1k]


Good video. I enjoyed it, although he does leave opportunities for the CTists. Ultimately, the question is moot. Because we have the rocks.
 
It honestly doesn't matter to me WHY he believes we went to the moon. So long as he reaches the correct conclusions, he could believe that pixie-fairies helped us to the moon. That's where I'm at, and that's where everyone here should be at. I'd much prefer someone who reaches historical accuracy through the wrong methods, then someone who misuses logic and science and who knows what else to reach the wrong conclusions.

We shouldn't reach out to CTers, we should treat them with either complete contempt or total pity, depending on your own personality. These people are delusional. There's no other word for it. We should either mock them relentlessly, or work to have them put in special institutions where they can get the help they need.
 
Digression

It honestly doesn't matter to me WHY he believes we went to the moon. So long as he reaches the correct conclusions, he could believe that pixie-fairies helped us to the moon. That's where I'm at, and that's where everyone here should be at. I'd much prefer someone who reaches historical accuracy through the wrong methods, then someone who misuses logic and science and who knows what else to reach the wrong conclusions.

Really?

Not me. The right conclusion through poor reasoning is no better than a lucky guess. To ignore poor methods is to increase the probability of later ignorance.

Who cares if someone just happened to get lucky today, if we know that their luck won't last?

Better to acknowledge poor reasoning, whether you agree with the conclusion or not. To be sure, I teach philosophy, so I'm a wee biased here.
 
Not one to play devils advocate here but dont we normally poo poo Youtube evidence if provided by a CTer?

We often do, but I think it bears thinking about why we do it.

In many cases someone will say, "I believe in [theory] because this video has persuaded me." There's not a lot of original thought from the proponent. And we usually can't depend on the proponent to proxy for the filmmaker and defend against criticism. Hence the type of argument that's just a YouTube link does not start a meaningful discussion. It's simply, "I like this video."

If the poster says it's his video, I'm more inclined to go look at it. But at the same time I have found that most YouTube videos are an inefficient way of making an argument, mostly because most YouTube producers are poor filmmakers. They make a ten-minute movie that is a narration of something I could have read in print in two minutes. One has to consider whether video is the best way to make your specific point.

You have to admit that aside from questions of whether video is the right format for your argument, there's nothing inherently wrong with video as evidence. I've always felt we've ignored YouTube evidence that perhaps we should not. However, whether it's your video your someone else's, I think it's appropriate to give a summary of the video and, where appropriate, provide a time offset to the one or two points the poster may want to get across. That's just courtesy, since we can't easily skim a video to see whether it's worth a closer look. (Well, we can now with YouTube, but it's still not as skimmable as a written post.)

And ultimately this is a written word forum. YouTube is it's own form for those who wish to debate through that medium. Arguments here should primarily be written words, with static illustrations as necessary.

But ultimately here someone has simply said, "I like this video." Sure, we're debating it but that wasn't necessarily the intent. The video itself is the subject.
 
Not one to play devils advocate here but dont we normally poo poo Youtube evidence if provided by a CTer?

YouTube has a bad reputation for this sort of thing simply because the majority of times a YouTube video is presented as evidence it's actually just a load of meaningless drivel that doesn't present any evidence, doesn't support the claims, or both. Even when actually containing useful information, they still have a habit of being poorly constructed and making rather a meal of presenting that information when it could often be easily shown in a couple of paragraphs of text. And that's particularly important since there's only so much time in a day so people don't want to waste an hour watching a video just to learn something that could have been read in a couple of minutes.

So yes, if a long YouTube video is presented as the only evidence for something with no further comments, it's often dismissed since experience shows it's unlikely to be worth the time that would need to be spent on it. But that doesn't mean no video can ever contain anything useful, it just means it's probably a good idea to hold off on watching one unless you think you have a good enough reason to watch it to outweigh the established trend.

A standard 35mm reel is 1000 feet. To fake and overcrank some continuous sequences would take 5,300 feet (47 minutes) of film on Apollo 11 and 10,600 ft on later missions, all on one reel.

Movie makers who have later attempted takes of similar lengths have had to shoot on video and later dub it to film. Video technology to do this did not exist in 1969, and film technology to do this still does not exist today.

This is exactly what the video says, and while I admit I don't know that much about filming things, this still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What technology is missing, exactly? OK, we need a length of film five times longer than normal. Is that not possible to make? We need to pull that film through a camera. Is that not possible with film longer than 1000 feet? I can certainly understand that this would likely be more expensive and maybe less reliable, and therefore has never been made commercially viable, but I just don't see any support for the claim that it would simply not be possible. Where is the part that actually prevents it from being done, rather than just making it a bit more difficult? Bear in mind that, again, we're talking about a claimed conspiracy consisting of hundreds of thousands of people and many billions in funding, so "It would be a bit more difficult and expensive" is not a good argument.
 
I almost bough it but then the check from NASA. I bet i could find a decent length of slow motion footage made before 1969 if I wanted to look for it. The guy is trying to insert another drivel into the hoax. I like best like he tries to portray himself like a real pal, the government, a bunch of liars an all
 
YouTube has a bad reputation for this sort of thing simply because the majority of times a YouTube video is presented as evidence it's actually just a load of meaningless drivel that doesn't present any evidence, doesn't support the claims, or both.

Indeed, a lot of it is just a flashy (re-)statement of the claim, not evidence for the claim. Links purporting to be "proof that UFOs are real" seem to follow that pattern a lot. You get nothing but the standard montage of blurry video and obvious fakes.

A lot of it is 10 minutes of drivel, out of which the poster intends only to refer to 3 seconds buried somewhere in the middle. I think that's the impetus for YouTube's scrub feature. The streaming protocol has advanced to the point where you can instantly seek to the point you want.

What irritates me is "This new video proves we didn't go to the Moon," whereupon I follow the link only to see yet another pirated clip of one of the hoax authors' videos that have been floating around for 10-20 years. Just because you captured it, put your little title slug on it, and posted it to your channel doesn't mean it's new. Yes, I realize that's not really a complaint against YouTube per se; it's more of a rant against the cyclical nature of conspiracy claims.

YouTube is filtered out of a lot of people's work access, so when people read and post from work it's problematic to tell them the proof is in something they maybe can't see until later.

Even when actually containing useful information, they still have a habit of being poorly constructed and making rather a meal of presenting that information when it could often be easily shown in a couple of paragraphs of text.

This guy not so much. The early part of his video illustrates common errors in photographic interpretation that conspiracists rely on, and his explanation meshes well with the motion-photography he uses to illustrate it. Good use of video, and good production values. The second half is narration with marginally related (but nevertheless skillful) graphic illustration and pull quotes -- a good way to get your point across if you're committed to video as a format, but not the best way to make those points if you get to choose your format.

Overall I think it's a well-made video, certainly well above the bar by YouTube standards.

Where is the part that actually prevents it from being done, rather than just making it a bit more difficult? Bear in mind that, again, we're talking about a claimed conspiracy consisting of hundreds of thousands of people and many billions in funding, so "It would be a bit more difficult and expensive" is not a good argument.

He waffles between the absolutist and relativist point of view. He says at several points that it's impossible, by which I finally gathered he means qualified as "impossible with off-the-shelf technology of the time." And at several other points he says it's just eventually more difficult than actually going to the Moon. The point he makes once, which I think he should have made more forcefully, is the hoax claimant's paradox: you can't simultaneously say NASA lacked the technology to go to the Moon and at the same time say they had ultimate resources for faking it.

This is the dilemma on whose horns many conspiracists trip up. This ultimately reveals that technology is the red herring in their argument. If NASA lacks ultimate resources to fly to the Moon but possesses ultimate resources to fake it, the question is not of resources but of moral observation. The goal of the Apollo hoax theory is to prove that NASA is evil. NASA represents the U.S. government, the Establishment, and all that prevents the conspiracist from enjoying greatness, credibility, or whatever may be his contemplation of the Good Life. And in the conspiracist's fantasy construct they have to be seen as evil at all costs.

That's where our filmmaker makes his other salient point: once you attribute omnipotence to the alleged conspirators, you've simply decided what you want to believe in the face of any evidence to the contrary.
 
That video ignores the issue of space radiation.

http://www.buzzcreek.com/grade-a/MOON/articles1.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2rotplZn0g

Before I saw the anomalies in the Apollo footage that prove it was faked in a studio, I used to think they probably really went to the moon because, to a layman like me, the technology necessary to go to the moon didn't seem that much more advanced than the technology necessary to build an atomic submarine. When I saw the anomalies, it was clear that they really didn't go to the moon but I wondered why they didn't go if the technology was available. Space radiation made everything fall into place. In the scenario of radiation-free space that most Americans have, it seems within the realm of the possible to build craft that can go to the moon. In the scenario in which six feet of lead is necessary to protect humans from space radiation once they are more than five hundred miles up, their having had to fake it is very understandable.

There's a partial summary of hoax proof in post #1 of a moon thread in the "The Club" section of the Spurstalk forum.
 

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