Harrit sues paper for defamation

It did not mention science as you Oystein correctly point out.

I disagree; it is clearly implied. The statement in question equates Harrit with other forms of pseudoscience, namely Holocaust denial and creationism. Here it is in Google Translate form:

"Should we have a poster with creationist plattenslageri to town on one of the finest information institutions? Why not just invite Niels Harrit and the other fools from 9/11 skeptic community in, now we are going, what with Holocaust denier environment?" said Søren K. Villemoes.

"plattenslageri" seems to be a compound word based on "platform", which would make sense in this contet.

Perhaps "poor scholar" would have been a better choice of words on my part than "poor scientist." But I'm working with an unrefined machine translation, so I'm going to stick with broad terms.
 
I disagree;..
You are welcome. If your interpretation is correct it simply shifts the problem - how do you get implication into evidence in court in face of explicit evidence that may differ.

And any difference between our positions almost certainly moot. Whether or not the whole issue of science or scholarship gets before the court will be determined by the tactics of both sides - P and D.

My money still on "it won't get to court" or rather "It will not get to a full hearing before the court."
... But I'm working with an unrefined machine translation, so I'm going to stick with broad terms.
My choice too. This thread has a clear split between those who have some understanding of law and those who don't and one who, true to form, is trying to pretend that Internet pseudo logic will apply in court.

Since I an rusty on Common Law and zero knowledge on Danish law I am limiting myself to broad concepts. JayUtah is doing a good job.
 
I disagree; it is clearly implied. The statement in question equates Harrit with other forms of pseudoscience...

No, other conspiracy theories.

I'm not saying pseudoscience doesn't play a part in all of them, but if you think like a lawyer then you're not constrained to belief they are united only by pseudoscience.

They may be examples of "conspiracy theories."
Or "religiously divisive issues."
Or "politically-driven beliefs."
Or "money-making schemes."
Or "topics over which proponents tend to sue their critics."

The point is that Harrit assumes why the author has lumped them together and basis his complaint only on the notion that it's aimed at his scientific reputation. He's projecting his own ideas onto the author.
 
"plattenslageri" seems to be a compound word based on "platform", which would make sense in this contet.

"Plattenslageri" roughly translated to "tricking people for money" - Google suggests "con man". It can also mean to use a particular case to promote a specific agenda or just earn money.

But from what I can gather, Harrit's primary claim is that the journalist calls him mentally ill, and that will never hold any water. As an example, a Danish politician sued for defamation a couple of years back, because she didn't want to be called a racist. She lost that case because the court found that "racist" didn't necessarily mean someone who dislike people of other races. With that as precedence, I highly doubt they would declare "tosse" as meaning specifically "mentally ill".
 
I'm not saying pseudoscience doesn't play a part in all of them, but if you think like a lawyer then you're not constrained to belief they are united only by pseudoscience.

They may be examples of "conspiracy theories."
Or "religiously divisive issues."
Or "politically-driven beliefs."
Or "money-making schemes."
Or "topics over which proponents tend to sue their critics."

The point is that Harrit assumes why the author has lumped them together and basis his complaint only on the notion that it's aimed at his scientific reputation. He's projecting his own ideas onto the author.

I see your point. But clearly, some kind of negative comparison is being made here, and I can see why someone who thinks himself a practicioner of proper science would take offense. But Harrit's case is fatally flawed in so many other ways that this nit probably isn't worth picking.
 
I see your point. But clearly, some kind of negative comparison is being made here...

Very clearly. But you can sue everyone who smack-talks you.

I can see why someone who thinks himself a practicioner of proper science would take offense.

Some people realize that they can go over to the dark side and earn far more money and get far more attention than they would by just plugging along the mainstream path. They're unsatisfied with obscurity. Unable to achieve notoriety in mainstream achievement, they turn to a venue in which they can be the Big Fish. And when that happens, they tend to be very sensitive to questions of their legitimacy.

But Harrit's case is fatally flawed in so many other ways that this nit probably isn't worth picking.

A good lawyer knows all the ways in which his opponent's case is flawed. He may only argue one or two, but there you go.
 
Your entire argument seems to be "Harrit won't win because everyone already sees him as a crackpot, and I too, anonymous JREF poster, also see him as a crackpot." I'm merely pointing out to you that this is not how a court of law operates.

The highlighted bit, your standard debate tactic slur, does not apply in this case. Your debate opponent is well known in this forum by his real identity and he has also made several TV appearances.

Feel free to carry on with the remaining flailing in your argument, dear ergo. It does appear to have been turned to a moon-sized pile of rubble.
 
So, you're saying it will be "tossed" out of court?:boxedin:
I have been resisting the obvious pun....:o

someone had to make it. ;)

More seriously:
-may not get to court because his lawyers advise him not to waste his time; OR

- may not pass the threshold test of a "case to answer" - however that prima facie threshold is defined within the Danish Court system.
 
The court can recognize that one who deliberately and purposely seeks public attention by way of controverting an almost unanimous view, is likely to attract undesirable attention. Having persisted in one's attention-seeking behavior in the face of that unfavorable response testifies to one's willingness to accept that condition as part of one's public image.

Perhaps this will be the defence, but I don't think it's a winning argument. As I've been trying to point out to you, your assumption of what is an "almost unanimous view" here is not based on reality. You keep assuming the court and this homogenous entity you call "public opinion" already "knows" about 9/11 conspiracy theories and that anything involving independent 9/11 research automatically falls into that category. That may be true here on JREF, but it's not really true in the rest of the world, especially outside of North America, and I suspect this is why Harrit does feel confident in challenging this.


Harrit arrived at and published his findings in a way he knew would not be palatable to the scientific community. His subsequent actions further illustrate his desire to distance himself from that community and not subject himself to their rigor.

Well, which is it? Either the scientific community has ignored Harrit's 9/11 research (as most of you here assert), or they have taken notice of it and attempted to communicate with Harrit about it, only to be rudely rebuffed by him. Which is it, JayUtah? I'm really just curious now, since you claim to now be speaking as a scientist.
 
You keep assuming the court and this homogenous entity you call "public opinion" already "knows" about 9/11 conspiracy theories and that anything involving independent 9/11 research automatically falls into that category.

Courts are not so ignorant as to be fooled by whatever labels people try to paste onto things in order to dress them up. In fact, trying to deny the essential nature of one's claims rapidly leads to strongly-worded rulings against you. Conspiracism is as conspiracism does, and I have yet to see a single conspiracy theorist convince a court that his "independent research" is legitimate science. Harrit's is not, for the reasons cited.

Well, which is it? Either the scientific community has ignored Harrit's 9/11 research (as most of you here assert), or they have taken notice of it and attempted to communicate with Harrit about it, only to be rudely rebuffed by him.

Herrit: I did this analysis that proved 9/11 was an inside job.
Science: Fine, let us see your samples and method so we can replicate your results.
Herrit: No.
Science: Very well then, we will ignore you.

Pedantry isn't an argument. Answer the real issue, not the straw man.

Which is it, JayUtah? I'm really just curious now, since you claim to now be speaking as a scientist.

This is the second time you have tried and failed to manufacture a false dilemma. Do you really think we can't see through these childish trolls?

I have asked you for your credentials in either science or law. I assume that you have none, since you have failed to acknowledge the request. As has been pointed out, many people here know me by my real identity and are aware of my recognition, publications, and television appearances on the subjects of science and pseudoscience over the past decade or so. Good luck trying to dismiss my arguments as those of some internet blowhard, but your audience knows differently and is laughing at you for it.

Please tell us why you deserve attention.
 
Well, which is it? Either the scientific community has ignored Harrit's 9/11 research (as most of you here assert), or they have taken notice of it and attempted to communicate with Harrit about it, only to be rudely rebuffed by him. Which is it, JayUtah? I'm really just curious now, since you claim to now be speaking as a scientist.
The scientific community has noticed whacky old Harrit and the response has been pretty-near unanymous:

:dl:
 
OK, I've got a question for the cognoscenti. The article in the OP says this (Google translated):

Niels Harrit has chosen to summon the two for libel after the Penal Code article 267 of the Copenhagen City Court.

Which sounds to me more like pressing criminal charges, rather than filing a civil lawsuit. The code in question, from Danish wikipedia, once again Google translated, says:

Any person who violates another's honor by offensive words or actions or by making or spreading allegations of a relationship that is likely to reduce the victim of fellow-esteem, punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 4 months.

I would never try to read too much into Google translations, but I have to ask: does it even matter if Niels Harrit is a "public figure?" I can't see how it would. It seems to me the case is a simple matter of determining whether or not calling someone a "tosse" meets the requirements called forth in the law.
 
...Which sounds to me more like pressing criminal charges, rather than filing a civil lawsuit...
As far as us Common Law trained lawyers can tell - yes it is criminal in Denmark whereas the type of claim would be civil in Common Law jurisdictions.
...It seems to me the case is a simple matter of determining whether or not calling someone a "tosse" meets the requirements called forth in the law.
That is near enough to the situation. Ergo is trying to pretend that the legal system doesn't exist or will operate the way he claims or that the trial will be conducted under Internet Trolling rules or....(anything else that meets the trolling goal)
 
As far as I read it Harris does not have a leg to stand on.

Calling him "Tosse" is not a legal term* and he does represent a rather silly point of view.

From the journalist school homepage:
I den offentlige debat skal der være plads til overdrivelser og provokationer, men beskyldninger må ikke være grebet ud af den blå luft. Der skal være et vist faktuelt grundlag for dem, men der kan ikke stilles krav om ”beviser”.
In the public debate, there must be room for exaggeration and provocation, but allegations must not be plucked out of thin air. There must be some factual basis for them, but there can be no requirement for "evidence".

It should not take long to locate "Some factual basis" from assorted 9/11 sites to justify calling him silly.

*Unlike a biker who won a case where he had been called a "murderous psychopath", he had been convicted for a murder, but the psychopath claim were concrete and not provable.
 
I have asked you for your credentials in either science or law. I assume that you have none, since you have failed to acknowledge the request.


To be fair, though, your own "credentials" in "either science or law" do not appear to be particularly impressive, either. A BA (or BSCS, depending upon the year) in computer studies isn't really considered a "science" degree. It's a fairly run of the mill degree that anyone can attain. Calling oneself a "Software Engineer" does not = being an engineer. Calling onself a "Computer Scientist" does not = being a scientist. Taking a few courses that mention law somewhere along the line does not = having any "credentials" in law.

I think that you would be better off sticking to what you know best, rather than staking claim to areas of expertise where you actually have none.

ETA: It seems to me that it is always better to stick to the facts instead of trying to start a contest of credentials, particularly when your own appear to be potentially sketchy and not particularly strong in any event. Why even start that kind of contest when it has nothing to do with the actual argument at issue? You've made yourself the topic of discussion here when that was neither necessary nor desirable.
 
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Just to throw in my $0.02 -- Formal credentials are fine as a starting point, but they can not be relied upon as an absolute marker of expertise. It is not difficult to find highly credentialed crackpots.
 
It should not take long to locate "Some factual basis" from assorted 9/11 sites to justify calling him silly.
Hell, just the company he keeps should be enough to have the case thrown out. Looking up Harrit on Ekstra Bladet (Daily Mail'esque tabloid for you non-Danes) reveals an 'article' on this case, as well as an article on how he'll be appearing at a conference along with a man who claims to have fathered an extra-terrestial child :)

And then there was the cancelled (I think?) conference not too long ago.
 

I prepared and discarded a half dozen replies to this post, but I think instead I'll just make a couple points in my defense and then move the rest to private discussions or another thread.

I think that you would be better off sticking to what you know best, rather than staking claim to areas of expertise where you actually have none.

Very well, do you consider yourself an expert on my academic, professional, and extracurricular careers?

ETA: It seems to me that it is always better to stick to the facts instead of trying to start a contest of credentials...

Begging pardon, but I don't believe I started it nor especially advanced it. In this post, ergo asked me where I studied law. I did not take the bait.

In this post ergo upped the stakes. He suggested that all the foregoing discussion was "personal and unprofessional" opinion, which I interpreted to mean "subjective and uninformed." Once again I did not take the bait. Instead I wrote this post in which I didn't discuss qualifications or credentials, but stuck to facts and law as I understand them. A number of posters seem to have considered it well written and at least one of the nominated it.

This is my first mention of qualifications and experience. The disclaimer posted by ozeco41 convinced me to state what my own actual expertise was and where my own knowledge of law was coming from. He clarified that law was not his primary expertise, and I felt it important to give a similar clarification. Under no circumstances did I intend that to "start a contest of credentials" or to imply that my expertise met some external standard.

Finally, here ergo for the third time raises the question of qualifications. He directly calls me an "uninformed layman." Further he suggests that he need not respond to statements he styles as subjective and uninformed. This and this and this support the idea that this poster habitually uses this sort of argument as a dodge.

When the argument you're presented with is, "You can't possibly know anything about the subject to justify your opinion, but here's my opinion which you should take as gospel," then a justifiable response is, "Well, here's how I know what I know. How do you know what you know, to make your opinion so much more favorable than mine?" I.e., it asks the proponent of a affirmative and congruent counter claim whether he's willing to subject it to the same standard of proof by which he rejected a case in chief. I have to work with the argument I'm given. When that argument is naked assertion based on implied expertise, that's the argument I have to address.

That turnabout rhetoric was my plan. I was trying to call his bluff. I was hoping that if he realized he'd be requested to justify the basis for his opinion, he'd get bored and stop disrupting what would otherwise be a good discussion.

You've made yourself the topic of discussion here when that was neither necessary nor desirable.

And thanks to your post I remain the topic of discussion whether or not I intended to be, whether or not I desire to be, whether or not it would have continued but for your interposition, and whether or not I had an overall plan in my line of questioning.

Now I've become stuck between the rock of going further off-topic by answering your criticism and the hard place of letting that criticism stand unchallenged. I'm shamed either way.

Well played, counselor.
 

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