2 questions re 1120 'Missing bodies' from WTC 1&2 & media complicity in mass murder

[The Big Dog]

And that is entirely correct (As long as the collapse is still progressing at 70% of g.


(To be pedantic: As long as the center of gravity of the loose upper part is accelerating at 0.7g. The motion profile of the COG surely differs from that of the crush front or the roof, but again, it doesn't matter much at the level we are at if that is 70% or 80% or 60% or even 90% or 50% of g)

You lost me. 100 percent is available to break stuff, it is only "using" some of that to do so.

 

[Oystein]

You lost me. 100 percent is available to break stuff, it is only "using" some of that to do so.

I had edited to add while you replied.
We're in agreement, after all
And I guess that is what Jbui meant, too.

 

[GlennB]

if this was the case, we should see this happening on the videos. can you paste a link?

No need . Lumps of WTC1 hit WTC7, a much greater distance than your claim.

There are many photos and videos that show this. Go look.

well, WTC7 e.g. had debris radius of 20 meters, and the debris field in most pictures in collapsed buildings look about the same.

I was clearly talking about the ejections from WTC1, not the debris field of the WTC7 collapse.

Calm down and read what's posted.

 

[beachnut]

just explain why the debris ejected at higher speed than the collapse progressed. Resorting to ad hominem attack is just a way to say you have no arguments.

What was the speed of ejection, and the speed of collapse? Do you understand physics? Once an object is clear of the building it falls at g. The collapse continues at the fastest based on momentum collisions under g.

Objects clear of the building will beat the collapse front, it is physics. Is this what you don't understand, and prefer nonsense from 911 truth, aka the movement of lies?

 

[tsig]

while wowing, I suggest you take a deep breath and think a little: when acceleration is 1G, potential energy is transformed 100% to kinetic energy, and no energy at all is used to crush stuff. When acceleration is 0,7G...

Usually when you break stuff, the tool that you use to hit the object does not accelerate, does not move move steadily, but decelerates very fast, when kinetic energy is used to break the object.

Depends on the size of the tool.

Can an egg slow down a bowling ball?

 

[beachnut]

I have heard this argument many times. But for some reason there is no video evidence of this "piston". All there is is a dust cloud. "Show me the piston." If you look closely,you can actually see that the "collapse line" is about 5-10 floors further dow in one corner of the building - how does that work with the piston theory?

Each floor is a piston. Acts like a piston, a leaky piston, as each floor collapses, the air has to go somewhere, it does.

When a truck drives by, you get blown with air, this is physics, not made up nonsense from 911 truth. Are you gullible, or able to use physics to explain the questions you plagiarized from a failed movement.

Ironically for those who hate the government..., the government story for the collapse of the WTC is the truth. No matter how much hate or bias against the government there is, the government can't spread lies about 911, we were looking. There was no stand down, I was on active duty; there was no CD, there were terrorists flying jets. 911 is easy to figure out, and 911 truth is easy to expose as liars and nuts.

while wowing, I suggest you take a deep breath and think a little: when acceleration is 1G, potential energy is transformed 100% to kinetic energy, and no energy at all is used to crush stuff. When acceleration is 0,7G...

This is comic book fantasy phsics. You made it up or plagarized this crap. This is nonsense.

You got this poppycock from a banned poster here.

Usually when you break stuff, the tool that you use to hit the object does not accelerate, does not move move steadily, but decelerates very fast, when kinetic energy is used to break the object.

When the top floors hit the bottom floors, the top mass takes on a new velocity based on momentum transfer, and continues to accelerate at g. So? This means WTC was a gravity collapse, and nothing you have, or say can make the collapse anything but a gravity collapse.

 

[fitzgibbon]

just explain why the debris ejected at higher speed than the collapse progressed. Resorting to ad hominem attack is just a way to say you have no arguments.

Simple, really. Pressure increase being created by a larger area than the pressure decrease area. Hence debris is ejected with greater velocity. It's kind of the same as when you step on a packet of ketchup or some other condiment; the ejection speed is far greater than the speed of force application

HTH
Fitz

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Wait, guys, is he talking about debris falling out to the sides getting to the ground first, or the pneumatic blowouts we saw that truthers think are due to "squibs"? I thought he was referring to the falling debris, given that he was talking about beating the collapse progression to the ground.

 

[fitzgibbon]

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant - the debris field had 1300 feet radius, small pieces of bones were picked two blocks away. So why don't you give it your best shot:
1. Floor collapses, person inside tower is pinned between the floors.
2.
3.
4. few small pieces of bones of the person are found two blocks away
- please fill in what happened in stages 2. & 3.

1. Airliner impacts building with momentum carry various and sundry
material beyond the building (2 blocks is very easily achievable)
2. Floor collapses, person inside tower is pinned between the floors (but
that's moot for the most part [though it's conceivable that bodies/body
parts made up some of the fast-moving ejecta seen emanating from the
collapsing structure
3. [No additional vector really require]
4. few small pieces of bones of the person are found two blocks away

FTFY

HTH
Fitz

 

[beachnut]

If the "spire" was not cut with cutter charges, it would have fallen to some direction, instead it dropped straight down.

sorry guys, gotta go to sleep, my baby boy will wake me up in 7 hours. Good night!

Your truther colors come out, you make up lies and support them with zero evidence.

If the "spire" was not cut with cutter charges,...!

You are spreading a lie, this is not true. 911 truth uses the same nonsense to fool people. This is made up science.

The core of the WTC cannot stand without the shell; please study the WTC structure before making up lies about structural engineering and structural failure. The shell of the WTC was the lateral support for the core. Means, the core would collapse. The force acting on the core is down, it is gravity. The core collapsed down, it can't fly sideways due to your cartoon concept of physics, which you make up as you go, or adopt from the failed 911 truth movement.

 

[fitzgibbon]

Wait, guys, is he talking about debris falling out to the sides getting to the ground first, or the pneumatic blowouts we saw that truthers think are due to "squibs"? I thought he was referring to the falling debris, given that he was talking about beating the collapse progression to the ground.

Truth be told, I don't think he really knows what it is he means. Call me a snark but I suspect he's JAQing off

Fitz

 

[beachnut]

...
There is often a claim that there was enormous energy coming from the collapse. As if turning a skyscraper into dust releases energy. Steel structure in a skyscraper can usually stand at least 3 times it's weight, and like in the case of Marriott hotel, WTC3sorry, can't paste an URL here due to forum restriction)
steel structure can actually stop free falling steel. So please explain, How can big part of Marriott Hotel and people inside survive tons of free-falling WTC steel, but people inside WTC2 do not get any protection from the steel structure on top of them, and instead that steel structure in WTC 1&2 is referred to a bomb that should blow people inside to small pieces and throw them two blocks away.

...

You are using 911 truth as your sources; this is funny, 11 years and the best you have is lies. The best.

WTC 3 stopped the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 and the result...

As a result of the collapse of the Twin Towers, the hotel was destroyed. Only the south part of three stories of the building were still standing, all of which were gutted. In the remnants of the lobby, picture frames with the pictures were still hanging on the walls. Approximately 40 people died in the hotel, including two hotel employees and many firefighters who were using the hotel as a staging ground.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriott_World_Trade_Center#cite_note-9

22 stories were reduced to three stories standing. Oh, yes, you are prepared to discuss 911 and spew lies from 911 truth; as prepared as the rest of 911 truth, which spread lies and fools those who refuse to do their own research.

The internet is not evidence, it is a wasteland where idiots are allowed to post nonsense; and you found all of it, and are in the process of regurgitating it open loop, on faith.


WTC 3 did not stop the debris from destroying WTC 3 - you are spreading lies. 40 people died, and you are saying they did not die? How much respect do you have for the murdered on 911? zero, a little, some?


E=mgh was released. The WTC was not turned to dust, the dust was caused by insulation, wallboard, ceiling tiles, cement was the minority. And the cement is light weight 4 inch floors.

Did you do the math? E=mgh?
It is equal in energy to over 130 tons of TNT - and I made a math error earlier. That is like 130 2,000 pound bombs, or 260 1,000 pound bombs, or 520 500 pound bombs. How many B-52 missions is that? F-117 missions?

WTC 3, it sure did stop the towers.

Wow, 22 stories still standing. Wait, 1, 2, 3... darn. What was your point.

BTW, don't use the Internet 911 truth nut web sites as your source of information.
BTW, http://911research is a truther web site, he thinks the ceiling tiles were made of thermite and caused the WTC destruction. I think meth might be a big player in that conclusion; what do you think? WDYT? WWSD? WWJD?

Good luck, but you are a 911 truther - maybe knowledge and critical thinking can let you see the light.

 

[LSSBB]

collisions result in "ejections" which go maybe 10-20 degrees from falling straight down. WTC ejections were all 90 horizontal ejections. Here's a clip of freefalling objects colliding, most you get is maybe 30-40 degrees "ejection"

Congrats! it only took some twenty posts for someone to call me dumb you won the prize! According to the gore pic: "9/11 Jumper Pancaked on the Ground", it seems like the body is in one intact piece. And it fell what 300-400 meters?

He didn't call you dumb, just the idea that the the bodies should be intact. That idea, considering the massive collapse of material going through them, and the sides peeling away at times like a banana, is dumb.

 

[threadworm]

We have been told, numerous times, that over 1000 people remain 'unaccounted for' from the Twin Towers. The most recent thing I could find on the subject: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/new_dna_hope_Au0HCjfc2WAHDpQlo9jYOK

So 1120 families got no remains back.
(1) Why has no one one bothered to ask or explained why, current DNA techniques are inadequate to identify these thousands of human remains that are on ice "for future analysis" ?

I know many victim's families got back only small fragments of their loved ones. A hip bone in one case..(found almost 2 blocks away) and buried that instead. I believe it is fewer than 300 intact bodies were found.

(2) What damaged these remains so badly, that the same techniques used to identify al-Zarqawi after we dropped a 500lb bomb on his head are inadequate here?

I have asked this of a few 'journalists' and they either ignore the question, or stay quiet. Not all of course, some know the truth perfectly well, but argue that, they dont get to pick their stories, the copy desks do, and they need their jobs.

I would rather change jobs, personally, than cover up for mass murder and treason. Journalists have betrayed their critical position as the watchdogs of the people against governmental abuse. Now they've become cheerleaders literally.. mouthpieces for elite interests. War, is always high on the list of elite interests. Just look at the US national debt in the last decade.

The media is owned by a handful of corporations who will do what is good for their bottom line first, always. So we have only the illusion of a free press any more. The Iraq war proved that conclusively.

How much will Americans stand for? It seems limitless

Many years ago a couple of friends of mine were killed in a plane crash in Nepal ( (this one).

When they brought their remains home for burial all they had was a tiny box that you could fit a pair of shoes in. There is every possibility that the remains were not theirs, or contained elements of the other unfortunates around them.

I assume all this means that they never existed and the flight they weren't on never crashed.

 

[Jbui]

Yes, let's talk about energy!

You may be surprised, but these numbers have already been crunched before, and it is fairly easy (for a good structural engineer) to estimate the energy needed to break the structural supports - it is much much less than then potential energy of gravity stored in a 415 meters tall building.

Acceleration 70% of G (that is a rough number, and it may be incorrect, but let's not quibble here, argument doesn't change if it's 60% or 80%) means that less than 30% of the potential energy suffices to break structural supports, and yes, that is fully in line with those calculations I talked about. The balance to 30% is available to do additional destruction, such as pulverizing gypsum wallboard, some concrete, and of course office contens, from desks to people.

so let me get this straight, the building was standing, holding 100% of it's weight without getting any damage to lower portion. when Top portion started accelerating with 0,7G, leaving 30% of it's weight on lower portion, suddenly that 0,3 was enought to pulverize the lower portion? Right?

But the collapse doesn't stop there! In fact in can be shown that later in the descent, acceleration goes down dramatically to the point where velocity is almost constand = acceleration near zero. That means that later in the fall, near 100% of the potential energy is available to do work on the structure and its contents.

But the collapse doesn't stop there!
When all the remaining structure hits the ground, all the kinetic energy is used to crush even more stuff (and a minor proportion of heat).

So in fact, almost 100% of the potential energy is eventually converted into mechanical work to destroy steel conectors (minor proportion), crumble concrete (major proportion) and all the other stuff, including people.

The numbers have been crunched for example by the team of Bazant, Le, Benson and Greening, if memory serves. The latter, Frank Greening, has gone into detail to calculate how much energy is needed to get concrete down to the observed particle size distribution, and the result he comes up with is right there in the ballpark of available potential energy.




But now suppose the gravitational energy does not suffice, i.e. what is needed to crumble the towers is much more than was available from gravity alone! How much additional energy would you need? Twice as much? Before I continue, I want you Jbui, to commit to an answer here. If the potential energy from gravity stored in a tower does not suffice, in your opinion, how much more do you need then?
1% more?
5% more?
25% more?
100 % more?
500% more?
Pick the minimum with which you could live!

as a lay man I'll just tell you a simple logic what I use. In CD, you need to detonate the lower 1/3 of the building and pre-weaken the top. Building has at least 300% safety factor. Without any calculations, you need to surpass that 300% safety factor, and if you detonate that lower 1/3, and it's ok for the crushing to decelerate, you can preweaken the top to safetyfactor of say 150 %, and propably your CD will go all the way down. With WTC 1&2-buildings you could not do preweakenings, and that "piston" was just a cloud of dust after beginning of the operation, so you had to go with explosives all the way down. With WTC7, you could preweaken the structure(like the stairwell where Barry ja Mr Hess were), but you still had to detonate quite many floors(the free fall part), for the gravity to do the rest.

 

[Jbui]

pul·ver·ize
1. To pound, crush, or grind to a powder or dust.
2. To demolish

Oops, pulverized is crushed. ..., that takes care of that problem.
Energy released is E=mgh, equal to 130 tons of TNT in each tower. Enough energy to crush, to pulverize anything.


How much is it?


WHAT? This is BS

Who made up this nonsense?


In CD they release E=mgh to destroy the building. Using a little bit of explosives to let gravity to the work - it is called business, you don't waste money on explosives, you let nature do the work, you harness gravity. 911 truth has no clue, they are always in a fantasy.


False statement. And you are ignoring the massive parts of the WTC which are doing the "crushing".

If this was true, KE (kinetic energy) weapons would not work, a gun could not kill. 911 truth is better named, 911 Lies, or 911 Fantasy/Fiction/Nonsense.

Crush and crush to dust are two different things. Drop a desk , from any height you want, and you see what I mean with simple crushing. Or go to a collapsed building and find a desk. Pick up a handfull of WTC dust, imagine a desk in your hand, and you see what I mean with pulverizing a desk.

 

[Jbui]

Time for:

_________________Progress Report______________

-I'm sorry, I do not have time to respond to you all, but thanks a lot for your answers anyway!
-I already know that it is impossible to "convert" a Debunker, so do not be afraid, I am not going to crush anyones world view here, just having fun, I hope you are too.
-In the beginning of this thread, there was a guy who proved that you do not need explosives to shred a human into tiny pieces, since you can do that with a vest of dynamite. There was no single argument against that. I am in the house of True Believers, and I don't think I can come up with anything better than what you guys post here yourself ..and sorry, I'll be nice now, I promise

_______________End Progress Report_______________

 

[Jbui]

You may want to look at the difference between average acceleration and instantaneous acceleration. As an example, I could jump off a 100m high structure and belly flop onto the pavement. With nothing to slow me down apart from wind resistance I'd acelerature at close to 9.8m/s/s and reach a speed of around 44m/s before coming to a stop in about 0.25m (about the thickness of a human body) reaching accelerations of 3900m/s/s or about 400g. Average acceleration is quite survivable but instantaneous acceleration is not.

Yes, it's true that on normal video, you can not see difference of instantenous acceleration, as the most stupidest, simplest, untrustworthy physics teacher in US, David Chandler points in his video What a Gravity-Driven Demolition Looks Like
-you can see what happens to average acceleration when there is no more help from pulling. Or what the paper "missing jolt" talks about, when you are supposed to see the top meeting the healthy bottom part of the building. There should be difference in average acceleration between crushing healthy structure and the destroyed floors.

 

[Jbui]

LOL... the collapse didn't progress at a rate consistent with free fall; that's why some objects reached the ground first. It wasn't propulsion, it was building resistance.

And if there's a horizontal component that makes something travel sideways "10-20 meters" halfway to all the way at the top of the buildings, how many feet would that be by the time it hit the ground? Things won't go sideways, then suddenly stop and fall straight down. That's not even cartoon physics.

Think, man. Think. It's not that hard.

I was not talking about the objects falling down faster that the crushing, but flying sideways faster than the crushing advanced downward. and as I already posted earlier, in a collapse there should be nothing flying 90 degrees sideways at all. And if you are supposed to "bounce" or "spring" something sideways, you need to see that part first fall or be hit by something that falls. In the videos we see parts ejecting one after another without anything hitting them, or those pieces falling on anything.

 

[beachnut]

Crush and crush to dust are two different things. Drop a desk , from any height you want, and you see what I mean with simple crushing. Or go to a collapsed building and find a desk. Pick up a handfull of WTC dust, imagine a desk in your hand, and you see what I mean with pulverizing a desk.

You are full of nonsense. You think the WTC towers were destroyed by CD and you use fantasy physics to prove it.

... take physics.

The parts ejected are hit by the building falling. It is physics, it is the way the WTC was designed. The neat part about the WTC collapse, the chief engineer says it fell as it should after impacts and fire. Kind of makes your claims of CD a big failure due to your own ignorance of physics.

BTW, if you drop a desk desk from 1000 feet, then crush it with tons of steel from 1,000 feet, it will be less than a desk. Why do you make up what you think should happen, and ignore what happened?

You have no clue what KE is, and how energy works.

Can't wait for your take on the flying done on 911.

The building was not blown up on 911, so your blown up body has no connection with backing in your delusion of CD.

You have failed to get anything right; did you fail physics?