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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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Clayton Moore said:
Complications from measles kill measles patients not the measle virus.

Patient care for measles includes patient care for complications from measles.
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I've always learned that prevention is better than treatment.

Since vaccines are generally safe, I'd take one over the disease any day.

In fact, If I'd have to choose between a)dying from a disease and b)autism, I know which one I'd choose, and I actually know that from experience.

So please, don't insult my or anyone else's intelligence by spouting the nonsense you spouted previously.
 
Giordano said:
You have made this "point" before and the meaning still eludes me. It's the complications from smallpox that kill you. It's the complications from polio that leave you crippled. For that matter, it's the complications from cancer that kill you. Do you die of measles complications in the absence of the measles virus?
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It's not rocket science, is it? Clayton doesn't want to understand this point.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Complications from measles kill measles patients not the measle virus.

Patient care for measles includes patient care for complications from measles.
Click to expand...
Here we go. You can't respond to my post so you resort to semantic games and goalpost shifting.

Measles kills patients. It causes them to die. If they hadn't had measles they wouldn't have died from the complications of the disease. Pretending that measles doesn't kill because 'it's the complications' is like pretending smoking isn't risky as it is heart disease and lung cancer that kill smokers. Measles ----> complications ----> death. Smoking ----> lung cancer ----> death. It's not that difficult to understand, really - and I have tried to simplify it for you as best as I can. I still expect you to misunderstand or misinterpret what I am saying though.

You used the word "cure", by the way. Not me. You. So, what is this cure?

If your "patient care for complications" is what you meant by "cure" (an odd slip, that one) then please do explain how this patient care has lowered mortality rates. First you must demonstrate the lowered mortality rates. Can you do that?

If you wanted to be taken seriously, you'd answer the points I made earlier Clayton.

Argument from incredulity again, Clayton? You don't believe that the mortality rate hasn't improved in the last fifty years, therefore it hasn't?

I suggest you try using data* rather than logical fallacies to argue your case.

Show me the improved mortality rates in developed nations please. While you're in research mode, perhaps you can look up a reliable source that tells us the cure for measles that has been invented. You seem to think there is one ("the ability of modern medicine's to cure disease in comparison to that of the 1950s"), so what is it?
*The generally accepted figure for the mortality rate of measles, now, in developed countries, is 1 in 2500-5000. Compare that to the mortality rate in the fifties and sixties. Why, it's around 1 in 2500-5000. There were 435,000 cases per year in the fifties and 141 deaths (mortality rate 1 in 3100). There were 369,000 cases per year in the sixties (up to 1968 when we got the first vaccine) and 85 deaths per year (mortality rate 1 in 4300). There were 5100 cases per year in the period 1992-2008 and 1.4 deaths (mortality rate 1 in 3600). Where's this huge improvement that was brought about by your imaginary measles cure? I'm struggling to see it. I can see a huge improvement in the number of notifications and deaths, but not the mortality rate. Oh, and perhaps you can explain why the mortality rate now looks worse than it did in the 60s? (I actually think there are good reasons for this, but they don't include us losing the cure for measles in the intervening years.)

There was an improvement in the mortality rate for measles but that goes back not fifty years but 70 years to a time when England & Wales had other things going on. Like war and rationing, for example. Perhaps you think we're living in the 1990s? You aren't stuck in 1998 are you Clayton? That would explain why you haven't heard the news about Wakefield...

Anyway, if you are genuinely interested in vaccine uptake, notifications, deaths and mortality rates you will find these links useful: http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPA.../1195733819251 & http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPA.../1195733835814 I should warn you, it does contain tables and I think Chris Haynes mentioned earlier that you had trouble with tables (something about you being unable to find which vaccines contained thimerosal?). Anyway, best of luck with your research.

Cheers,
jdc.
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Giordano said:
You have made this "point" before and the meaning still eludes me. It's the complications from smallpox that kill you. It's the complications from polio that leave you crippled. For that matter, it's the complications from cancer that kill you. Do you die of measles complications in the absence of the measles virus?

As already explained to you, medicine still can't treat the complications from measles effectively enough to keep people from dying of measles infections. But they can vaccinate you against measles and prevent the infection in the first place.
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After 50 years of medical advancements in treating patient maladies?

I noted you avoided this.

Vaccine Side Effects

Quote:
The measles vaccine occasionally causes side effects in kids who don't have underlying health problems. The most common reactions are fever 6-12 days after vaccination (in about 5%-15% of kids vaccinated) and a measles-like rash, which isn't contagious and fades on its own (in about about 5% of vaccinated kids).
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What happens to children who DO have underlying health problems?

6-12 days? Isn't that when know nothing parents have been saying their children suddenly became autistic?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Complications from measles kill measles patients not the measle virus.

Patient care for measles includes patient care for complications from measles.
Click to expand...

Clayton Moore said:
After 50 years of medical advancements in treating patient maladies?
Click to expand...
Yes Clayton that's right now why don't you run along and look up the serious complications of measles like encephalitis and SSPE and see why that might be.

I noted you avoided this.

Vaccine Side Effects

Quote:


What happens to children who DO have underlying health problems?

6-12 days? Isn't that when know nothing parents have been saying their children suddenly became autistic?
Click to expand...
No, most whom I have read claim their children "become autistic" within a day or two following vaccination or even more ridiculously, immediately upon vaccination.

As for children with underlying health problems, it depends upon what they are so you will have to be specific. In general however, even most children with underlying conditions tolerate the vaccine just as well.

Este
 
This is a very bizzare conspiracy. In order to make sure they can keep selling vaccines, the conspiracy has covered up the fact that it has treatments that have reduced measles mortality down to pretty much zero. The evidence of this is that it is now fifty years later than fifty years ago.

Yet it never really was measles mortality, it was measles-complication mortality.

And all of the research showing that vaccines are not implicated in causing autism is a cover-up, due to the entire worldwide community of doctors and researchers is either bought off, or does not want to "rock the boat." We know all the research is lies because of parent anecdotes and the fact that vaccines are a foreign substance in a helpless child's body. That, and the only thing that different autistic people have in common--the one and only thing--is vaccines.

This scenario is not credible.
 
Clayton Moore said:
After 50 years of medical advancements in treating patient maladies?

I noted you avoided this.

Vaccine Side Effects

Quote:


What happens to children who DO have underlying health problems?

6-12 days? Isn't that when know nothing parents have been saying their children suddenly became autistic?
Click to expand...

You quote my post, but your "reply" has nothing to do with what was in my post. Why is that? It's almost as if you are changing the subject again.

I "avoided" the vaccine side effects because it had absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making, which you can confirm by re-reading (reading?) my post. Others here have discussed the side effect issues in more detail (the side effects you quoted aren't particularly scary and are highly preferable to measles itself); you can discuss that point with them.

But perhaps you can take the time to actually address what was in my first post, rather than what you imaged was in it. TO remind you, I asked you if one develops complications from measles if one is not infected by the measles virus. Or you can quote my newest post, but change the subject again. I am somewhat curious to see what happens!
 
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Where can I find any study that removes all other commonalities except vaccines in ASD cases Clayton?
 
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