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WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

Several comments about posts above. First, wow, lots of leads here. Can Ivan or Oystein sort through these and find out if any of these debris memorials might have what we are looking for?

BTW in support of what MM said, when Kevin Ryan was still talking to me, he said that he has in his possession both red-grey paint chips and red-grey thermitic chips, "and I can tell you they are not the same." He claimed that they look different to the eye, but more importantly, that the thermitic chips have an exothermic quality that the paint chips don't. Unfortunately, he refused to release the samples to me or Millette, and our personal connection broke down around that time. I was never able to get samples of these different kinds of chips, or more info about them in relation to the Bentham paper. Nor did I know at that time about the two different types of paint primer in use at WTC. So MM is right that the Bentham authors knew there were paint chips, but his noncooperation has made it impossible to know what he actually has. In the meantime, however, the Millette study has not been credibly refuted when it comes to the question of which chips he tested. Many 9/11 Truth people seem to agree that his methodology in finding the correct chips was sound.

Oystein I doubt Millette would have any interest in a concoction made up to imitate the original LaClede paint. he wants the real thing, for a number of good reasons.

As for the various pieces of steel debris in the WTC memorials, can Ivan or Oystein ID any possible places where trusses are to be found in any of them for a possible scraping?

I like Ivan's idea of writing to PPG for original samples. BTW the only reason I get as many answers as I do is because I keep asking, respectfully and sincerely, by email and phone, over and over again until it takes more time to ignore me than to answer me. Is anyone willing to take on the PPG request Ivan outlines above? This would be the gold standard in my mind.

I may be wrong, but I wonder if a known sample of LaClede from a forensic scientist with a vast collection of paint chip samples would be even better than a scraping from the WTC debris? Millette has been looking for both, asking forensic scientists at all the conventions he attends if they have various paint samples as well as scraping off a bit of a WTC memorial that passed through his hometown of Atlanta.
 
Chris:
I doubt that PPG can posses some original paint samples, but they could remember if the same primer paint was applied in other buildings/constructions. And such places can be very good sources of samples. This paint job (WTC) had to be anyway important business even for such a big company. I think:cool:

As for your last paragraph, you mean that some collector could possess the chips of the same paint as was used in WTC1/2 floor trusses? Good, but this would again require some cooperation with the manufacturer. Otherwise, chips of paint for WTC floor trusses can be recognized quite easily in any collection: they must have the same XEDS spectrum, appearance, thickness as chips (a) to (d) in Bentham paper;)
 
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chrismohr said:
Several comments about posts above. First, wow, lots of leads here. Can Ivan or Oystein sort through these and find out if any of these debris memorials might have what we are looking for?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I see no hint of floor truss material in any of the linked images upthread :(
On all the memorials that use WTC debris, all the steel I can discern is of the massive, impressive kind, which the trusses are not. The trusses consist of L-shaped chords and round web bars, with mostly the following dimensions:
L-shaped bulb angles, 3 in. x 2 in. (lower truss chord)
L-shaped bulb angles, 2 in. x 1.5 in. (upper truss chord)
Round bars of 0.75 in., 0.92 in., 0.98 in., 1.09 in., 1 13/16 in. (truss webs)
(The main trusses come in two main varieties: 60-ft long, and 36-ft long. Perpendicular to those, there were bridging trusses that were somewhat flimsier, I don't know their typical length)

(Source: NIST NCSTAR 1-3D Table 3-10, page 57)

chrismohr said:
BTW in support of what MM said, when Kevin Ryan was still talking to me, he said that he has in his possession both red-grey paint chips and red-grey thermitic chips, "and I can tell you they are not the same." He claimed that they look different to the eye, but more importantly, that the thermitic chips have an exothermic quality that the paint chips don't. Unfortunately, he refused to release the samples to me or Millette, and our personal connection broke down around that time. I was never able to get samples of these different kinds of chips, or more info about them in relation to the Bentham paper. Nor did I know at that time about the two different types of paint primer in use at WTC. So MM is right that the Bentham authors knew there were paint chips, but his noncooperation has made it impossible to know what he actually has.
Click to expand...
Problem is, they never put that into writing. Reading the Bentham paper, no carefulk reader would get the idea that they acknowledge the presence of red-gray chips that are paint, and use any method to avoid thise. Thus any follow-up researcher wouldn't know how to separate paint chips from "thermitic" chips. What are the objective criteria, short of burning them? I suppose Farrer knew which chips to put in the DSC - or did he test a lot of chips and only some showed the exothermic quality, and that's the sole criterion? How then do they know it is not some paint that happens to have an exothermic quality?

Jones and Legge suggest following the protocol described in the Bentham paper to select chips - but that is exactly what Millette did:
- Pull a magnet through the dust
- Under a microscope, separate those that are bi-layered red and grey
- Additionally, he chose some whose EDS spectra match Fig. 6 and 7

So I would like for Kevin, Frank, Steve, Niels or Jeff - or Mark - to please explain to all researchers interested in "replicating" the Harrit study what Millette did wrong, and how to do it right - apparently, the descriptions contained in the Bentham paper are not sufficient!


chrismohr said:
In the meantime, however, the Millette study has not been credibly refuted when it comes to the question of which chips he tested. Many 9/11 Truth people seem to agree that his methodology in finding the correct chips was sound.
Click to expand...
Yes and no. "They" like to focus on the lack of DSC testing - but there must be an objective and non-destructive way to distinguish the chips prior to burning them.

chrismohr said:
Oystein I doubt Millette would have any interest in a concoction made up to imitate the original LaClede paint. he wants the real thing, for a number of good reasons.
Click to expand...
I understand those reasons.

Re-creating the formulation could serve one purpose: To demonstrate that a paint LIKE LaClede can or can't display such an exothermic quality.


chrismohr said:
I may be wrong, but I wonder if a known sample of LaClede from a forensic scientist with a vast collection of paint chip samples would be even better than a scraping from the WTC debris?
Click to expand...
Hmm -why?
As Sunstealer pointed out: Let's not forget that the red-gray chips are red-gray chips, so at the end of the day, if you want to compare the behaviour of known LaClede primer with those chips that we believe to be LaClede on steel scale, you'd have to include the gray layer - as that may be the actual source of iron-rich microspheres. Doubtful if a forensic catalogue of such samples would have the paint attached to scale.
 
Spanx said:
A few smaller pieces of steel in the link below.

http://www.newser.com/story/121832/world-trade-center-steel-going-to-911-memorials.html
Click to expand...

Ergh... still too large pieces. It is written in the article that WTC steel was sent from Port Authority "to thousands of fire departments, police departments, and cities", but who knows if there were any floor trusses among them:confused:
Anyway, if Port Autority owns/owned thousands of steel pieces, it "slightly" contradicts to the claims of truthers that the steel was almost completely shipped to China (or whenever) soon after the disaster...
 
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Ivan Kminek said:
Ergh... still too large pieces. It is written in the article that WTC steel was sent from Port Authority "to thousands of fire departments, police departments, and cities", but who knows if there were any floor trusses among them:confused:
Anyway, if Port Autority owns/owned thousands of steel pieces, it "slightly" contradicts to the claims of truthers that the steel was almost completely shipped to China (or whenever) soon after the disaster...
Click to expand...

I think I will be including firefighter in my steel searches.

Looks like some of the steel ended up in the below link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqUqvHoZfSs&feature=youtube
 
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Spanx, Oystein: You can be right, guys, this sculpture can be made of floor trusses steel, judging e.g. from comparison with the newspapers "headlines" visible on the support of the first photo (not here, but in original photo of higher quality):cool: (Previously, I saw only second photo, in which dimensions look larger in comparison with the man; the first photo seems to be more realistic, as for dimensions)

picture.php


picture.php


Steel pieces have L-shape, which they should have, dimensions seem to be roughly corresponding... only "little" problem is that they are really rusty, perhaps without any traces of paint.
But...
 
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From that site re. the Christchurch memorial, Looks like there's another bit of steel there;

0e32adef-51c1-4860-8bde-dccbc8e7b17d.jpg


What do the truss connectors look like? From this angle, the main memorial in the background shows a few connector bits sticking off it like the pieces in the foreground.
 
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cjnewson88: What is shown at the front beam as horizontal element, can be perhaps truss connector. But without any part of trusses.

But back to North Arlington 911 Memorial, which is more promising.

Here is a photo titled "NJ North Arlington gets beam from World Trade Center from Port Authority"

picture.php


If this steel piece is the same as shown in the memorial, I'm again confused:confused: It's too big for floor truss. And compare it e.g. with the photo in post No. 1179, which should show typically entangled floor trusses...
 
chrismohr said:
Hi Ivan and all,

In our search for a known LaClede primer sample, I copied this picture and sent it to NIST people, who referred me to the Port Authority, who referred me to Nancy Johnson, who has written to me twice, "Chris, the Port Authority does not have possession of this or any similar WTC steel." We seem to be at a dead end. In any event, I am wondering if the very best sample would not be from the WTC steel anyway, but a known sample from one of those collectors of samples of particles (some of these scientists have collections of dust or chips or whatever numbering in the hundreds of thousands and use them for forensic analysis). But to my knowledge, even Millette has been unable to find anyone with a LaClede primer sample when asking people for them at the conferences where he gave a lecture on his dust study. I'm not sure if any other leads exist.
Click to expand...

Chris,
I just recollect that Judy Woods showed us a "Gallery of Recovered World Trade Center Steel at NIST", which includes an "unidentified" photo from my post 1179 or e.g. this image:

picture.php


You wrote that NIST referred you to Port Authority, but this hall or whatever very probably belongs to NIST. There are many floor trusses visible, perhaps NIST still possesses some samples? I think that Jim Millette should ask them:cool:
 
So... how to get to these structures? A lot of them are out in the open. Some are traveling exhibits. If any of them are nearby, it may well be OK to photograph them from a distance, then just go up to them, touch them, have a little silent time at the memorial to honor our dead, then look for some red paint on one of those little trusses. Photograph closeup the area you find, then scrape a bit of the paint into a baggy. I personally know one person who has already done this at one of these memorials. However, be aware that technically, doing this may be illegal, so you may be taking on some risk if you do this. If you do want to take on this risk, be sure to date the sample, don't touch the sample with your bare hands, and be sure the photo clearly shows where the sample comes from.

Is there anything I am missing with this suggestion of how to get a possible LaClede primer sample from the WTC debris?
 
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