Science vs. faith

[epix]

The ancients had prayer. It didn't help them much more than sucking their thumbs. Only through the application of reason and logic did we advance.

Let's see some of the useless ancient prayers:

One of the first proofs by contradiction is the following gem attributed to Euclid.

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~larryc/proofs/proofs.contradict.html

Here is a well-known ancient prayer in a literal translation: The sum of the squares of the sides of a right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse.
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~demo5337/Group3/hist.html

That prayer is used extensively even today and it works.

Well, I think I saw enough in this thread. Faith is regarded as a scientific method; the ancients couldn't think straight and so they had to pray all the time... What else am I going to learn in this "educational" forum?

 

[RandFan]

The title matches two methods of investigation: faith and science.

Assuming that religion is a method (I don't know of any truth demonstrated by religion) I would say you have created a false dichotomy as you have left out other supernatural methods like astrology, psychic phenomenon, trot cards, etc., etc..

Two methods: Science and superstition.

Superstition is a belief in supernatural causality: that one event leads to the cause of another without any physical process linking the two events, such as astrology, omens, witchcraft, etc., that contradicts natural science.

Since most if not all religions are belief on supernatural causality let's just put then all into superstition.

 

[abaddon]

Let's see some of the useless ancient prayers:

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~larryc/proofs/proofs.contradict.html

Here is a well-known ancient prayer in a literal translation: The sum of the squares of the sides of a right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse.
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~demo5337/Group3/hist.html

No.

That prayer is used extensively even today and it works.

That's simple maths. Of course it works. Probability says it will work in at least some circumstances just by chance. That is not "working", that's just happenstance.

Well, I think I saw enough in this thread. Faith is regarded as a scientific method; the ancients couldn't think straight and so they had to pray all the time... What else am I going to learn in this "educational" forum?

This forum can be as educational as it wants. The lack is your willingness to learn.

 

[RandFan]

Let's see some of the useless ancient prayers:

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~larryc/proofs/proofs.contradict.html

Here is a well-known ancient prayer in a literal translation: The sum of the squares of the sides of a right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse.
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~demo5337/Group3/hist.html

That prayer is used extensively even today and it works.

What doe you mean "it works"? How does it work?

Well, I think I saw enough in this thread. Faith is regarded as a scientific method; the ancients couldn't think straight and so they had to pray all the time... What else am I going to learn in this "educational" forum?

You won't learn to rely on superstition that's for damn sure.

 

[RandFan]

Really? You will simply put your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalalalala"?

For real?

Well, I think I saw enough in this thread.

 

[dafydd]

Here is a well-known ancient prayer in a literal translation: The sum of the squares of the sides of a right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse.
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~demo5337/Group3/hist.html

Maths is prayer? You must belong to a really weird church! This thread should be moved to the comedy forum.

 

[dafydd]

Well, I think I saw enough in this thread. Faith is regarded as a scientific method; the ancients couldn't think straight and so they had to pray all the time... What else am I going to learn in this "educational" forum?

It wasn't the ancients who didn't pray that made the advances in human knowledge.

 

[epix]

What doe you mean "it works"? How does it work?

How does the Pythagorean theorem work?

Imagine right-angle triangle GOD where O_D is the hypothenuse. What is the length of it?

The Pythagorean theorem tells us that (O_D)² = (G_O)² + (G_D)²
Since, according to your view, the ancients couldn't reason and had to rely on prayers, Pythagoras could do nothing else but to pray to the God of Triangles, and that pagan divinity revealed to Pythagoras the formula that has been used since then. The formula is also used by atheist mathematicians of our modern times, because they couldn't come up with anything better than that, no matter how hard they reasoned.

 

[RandFan]

How does the Pythagorean theorem work?

Imagine right-angle triangle GOD where O_D is the hypothenuse. What is the length of it?

The Pythagorean theorem tells us that (O_D)² = (G_O)² + (G_D)²

No no no no no no no. What the hell does that have to do with prayer? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's not a prayer.

Since, according to your view, the ancients couldn't reason...

That's a bald face lie. What I said was:

The ancients had prayer. It didn't help them much more than sucking their thumbs. Only through the application of reason and logic did we advance.

Of course the ancients could reason. Prayer was a waste of time but reason wasn't. It was reason that helped the ancients progress.

...and had to rely on prayers, Pythagoras could do nothing else but to pray to the God of Triangles, and that pagan divinity revealed to Pythagoras the formula that has been used since then. The formula is also used by atheist mathematicians of our modern times, because they couldn't come up with anything better than that, no matter how hard they reasoned.

What on earth are you talking about? Math isn't prayer.

 

[dafydd]

How does the Pythagorean theorem work?

Imagine right-angle triangle GOD where O_D is the hypothenuse. What is the length of it?

The Pythagorean theorem tells us that (O_D)² = (G_O)² + (G_D)²
Since, according to your view, the ancients couldn't reason and had to rely on prayers, Pythagoras could do nothing else but to pray to the God of Triangles, and that pagan divinity revealed to Pythagoras the formula that has been used since then. The formula is also used by atheist mathematicians of our modern times, because they couldn't come up with anything better than that, no matter how hard they reasoned.

What!? You just scraped your way through the bottom of the barrel. Nobody said that the ancients could not reason.

 

[dafydd]

What on earth are you talking about? Math isn't prayer.

Another epix fail.

 

[epix]

No no no no no no no. What the hell does that have to do with prayer? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's not a prayer.

That's a bald face lie. What I said was:

The ancients had prayer. It didn't help them much more than sucking their thumbs. Only through the application of reason and logic did we advance.

I never suspected that you would use inclusive "we." I'm always under impression when visiting here that reason and logic is a trademark of atheism.

Of course the ancients could reason. Prayer was a waste of time but reason wasn't. It was reason that helped the ancients progress.

How do you know that prayer was a waste of time for the ancients? You were not there; you have absolutely no slightest idea what was going on back then. But there are manuscripts you can get a clue from.

Porphyry also emphasizes Pythagoras' divine aspects and may be setting him up as a rival to Jesus (Iamblichus 1991, 14). These three third-century accounts of Pythagoras were in turn based on earlier sources, which are now lost.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pythagoras/

Why didn't the ancients drop all the praying when they could apply their ability to reason to the effect of realizing that prayer doesn't help?

 

[dafydd]

How do you know that prayer was a waste of time for the ancients?

Because there are no gods to pray to, therefore they were wasting their time. Archimedes did not spend his time on his knees burbling away to an imaginary being.

 

[dafydd]

Why didn't the ancients drop all the praying when they could apply their reason to the effect of realizing that prayer doesn't help?

Why don't modern believers in a religion do the same thing? For the same reasons as the ancients. Confirmation bias and the odd coincidence. When you say the ancients, do you include the ancient Greeks and Romans? Are you saying that their gods were real?

 

[RandFan]

How do you know that prayer was a waste of time for the ancients? You were not there; you have absolutely no slightest idea what was going on back then. But there are manuscripts you can get a clue from.

Demonstrate that it works?

Why didn't the ancients drop all the praying when they could apply their ability to reason to the effect of realizing that prayer doesn't help?

Why don't you? There is zero evidence that it works.

 

[ddt]

Let's see some of the useless ancient prayers:

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~larryc/proofs/proofs.contradict.html

Huh? You are aware that
a) Euclid's Elements is the first application of the axiomatic method to mathematics;
b) It relies on rigorous application of logic;
c) Mathematics is neither religion nor science.

Here is a well-known ancient prayer in a literal translation: The sum of the squares of the sides of a right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse.
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~demo5337/Group3/hist.html

You're probably equally unaware of the literally hundreds of proofs for the Pythagorean theorem. Euclid gave one of them in the Elements.

That prayer is used extensively even today and it works.

Yeah, it works because mathematics works.

 

[bruto]

Let's see some of the useless ancient prayers:

http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~larryc/proofs/proofs.contradict.html

Here is a well-known ancient prayer in a literal translation: The sum of the squares of the sides of a right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse.
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~demo5337/Group3/hist.html

That prayer is used extensively even today and it works.

Well, I think I saw enough in this thread. Faith is regarded as a scientific method; the ancients couldn't think straight and so they had to pray all the time... What else am I going to learn in this "educational" forum?

The Pythagorean link is interesting, and I see it mentions that the Pythagoreans had prayers, but I could find no reference to a prayer that any specific theorem be true, nor any reference to this being a well known prayer nor any reference to translation, literal or not. I'm very tired and dizzy today, so perhaps I missed something in the text. But it sure looks as if you're making something up.

 

[epix]

The Pythagorean link is interesting, and I see it mentions that the Pythagoreans had prayers, but I could find no reference to a prayer that any specific theorem be true, nor any reference to this being a well known prayer nor any reference to translation, literal or not. I'm very tired and dizzy today, so perhaps I missed something in the text. But it sure looks as if you're making something up.

The last portions of this thread have been attacked by the trolls and heavily edited, so it's better to see it walk into the waste basket. It should have been be tossed in there just by the virtue of its title that compares faith with science. Some folks, like the author of the OP, are not aware of the fact that faith is not a scientific method. But someone interpreted the title "Faith vs. Science" as "Faith in Science," meaning that faith contributes to scientific research, and that became the new topic.

From this
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pythagoras/
you can get the idea that the ancients believed that some of their discoveries made in philosophy and mathematics were made with the assistance of gods. That's why the third century writer Porphyry compares Pythagoras to Jesus.

In modern times, public acknowledgement of such belief is very rare. For example, the brilliant Indian mathematician Srinisava Ramanujan credited his analytic abilities to a deity.

He often said, "An equation for me has no meaning, unless it represents a thought of God.

Src: Wikipedia

It kind of make sense, because Ramanujan didn't receive a formal training in mathematics, so someone had to help him.

The ancients didn't anticipate the rise of atheism some two millennia later and so they didn't adjust their writting accordingly. But they surely didn't pray the way you think they did - the way modern Christians pray.

 

[dafydd]

you can get the idea that the ancients believed that some of their discoveries made in philosophy and mathematics were made with the assistance of gods.

Names please. And you cannot make discoveries in philosophy. Maths yes, but no gods were needed, only intelligence.

 

[dafydd]

It kind of make sense, because Ramanujan didn't receive a formal training in mathematics, so someone had to help him.

Do you know what the word ''autodidact'' means? Ramanujan thought up the equations, whether he attributed them to an imaginary being or not is neither here nor there. Asking you pertinent questions that you dodge is not trolling, by the way.