LDS

Status
Not open for further replies.
The matters you are discussing are not the work of man, but the work of God.
Whose fault was it that the Church purchased forgaries from Mark Hoffman? Whose fault was it that the dealings with Hoffman resulted in the death of two innocent people?

Work of god?

Are the trial records of Mark Hoffman anti-Mormon also?
 
One method of "glass looking" -- the crime of which Smith was convicted -- was to place a stone or glass object in a hat, then hide ones head in the hat to foresee the location of buried treasure or whatever, for a fee, of course.
If someone has his face buried in a hat like the drawing RandFan posted, aren't they going to have a difficult time dictating something.
 
Oh yeah, and the most important question... *drumroll*

The hat.

He probably got it here:
George Beckwith,
At his old stand, one door west of N. H. Beckwith, has just received from New-York, a very extensive and excellent assortment of
FALL & WINTER
GOODS...
Canal contractors and all others wishing to purchase Goods cheap, will find it for their interest to call and examine.
Palmyra, Dec. 1820

N.B. He has also on hand an elegant assortment of
Gentlemen's Fashionable
Hats,
which he will sell unusually low.

(from the Palmyra Register, Dec. 20, 1820)

:D

Only partially kidding. It's as good a guess as any.
 
The Lord has given all the evidence he needs to give. Every opportunity has been given to mankind to be able to progress through the eternities. Each individual is responsible for their own salvation. Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.
 
God gave Joseph Smith the gift and power

No. He was already using that gift and power. He was using it to fleece people out of their money, and he was convicted for such in a court of law.

I understand you only want to convey the church's official story. But you need to back that story up with evidence. The burden of proof is on YOU.
 
The Lord has given all the evidence he needs to give. Every opportunity has been given to mankind to be able to progress through the eternities. Each individual is responsible for their own salvation. Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.

Translation:

Don't worship the god in the right way, and you will be punished for all eternity, even if you were a good person.

Nice guy.
 
It seems to be that, in your eyes, a source that is not uncritically pro-mormon, toeing the entire party line, in "anti-mormon".

You are ignoring the middle ground...

She's also ignoring that some of the site she's saying are anti-mormon are in fact Mormon church sites.
 
The Lord has given all the evidence he needs to give. Every opportunity has been given to mankind to be able to progress through the eternities. Each individual is responsible for their own salvation. Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.

So, instead of answers, all you have is threats?

Wouls you mind, very much, identifying some sources that you would not characterize as "anti-mormon", that are not simply pro-mormon party line machines? In your mind, is it as simple as "if ya a'n't fer us, yer agin' us"?
 
spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.

Huh??? A few posts ago you were saying that after I died I could always ask a nice Mormon to baptize me and I would be fine again.
 
The Lord has given all the evidence he needs to give. Every opportunity has been given to mankind to be able to progress through the eternities. Each individual is responsible for their own salvation. Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.
Your persistent preaching is very, very tiresome.
And, weren't you leaving?
 
The matters you are discussing are not the work of man, but the work of God. :)

On a spring day in 1820 14-year-old Joseph Smith sought solitude in a grove of trees and prayed to know which church was true. God the Father and Jesus Christ, "two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description," appeared and spoke with him... Joseph Smith's first vision stands today as the greatest event in world history since the birth, ministry, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.....


So, for 2,000 years, everyone had it all wrong ?
 
The Lord has given all the evidence he needs to give. Every opportunity has been given to mankind to be able to progress through the eternities. Each individual is responsible for their own salvation. Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.
I'm not ignoring anything. If there is a god and he needed me to understand something then he should tell me. I've been on my knees many nights. I've fasted and prayed, went through the Temple and served a mission. Like Oz and the Tin Man, god never gave me anything I didn't already have.

BTW: Your argument is basically Pascal's Wager. It's been debunked.

  • Ignore Allah at your peril.
  • Ignore Catholicism at your peril.
  • Ignore Scientology at your peril.
  • Ignore Calvinism at your peril (hint: you don't have a choice).
  • Ignore Hinduism at your peril.
 
I'm not ignoring anything. If there is a god and he needed me to understand something then he should tell me. I've been on my knees many nights. I've fasted and prayed, went through the Temple and served a mission. Like Oz and the Tin Man, god never gave me anything I didn't already have.

BTW: Your argument is basically Pascal's Wager. It's been debunked.

  • Ignore Allah at your peril.
  • Ignore Catholicism at your peril.
  • Ignore Scientology at your peril.
  • Ignore Calvinism at your peril (hint: you don't have a choice).
  • Ignore Hinduism at your peril.


Apparently, too, actual belief is not the key, just the pretense. You may recall Pup being chastised for not adopting the Mormon faith just to please Mrs. Pup.
 
I am fascinated by religious conversion accounts. It seems to me it takes a great deal of introspection to change one's whole world view. I've heard stories in which it takes years but I also talked to an ex-preacher who said he was driving home late one night and it just hit him instantaneously that his religion (forget which one) was a house of cards. So Janadele, I'd like to ask some questions about your own transition. You are, of course, free to say that you don't want to discuss your path here and, if so, I won't pursue it at all.


  • How old were you when the missionaries first visited you? Was there only one visit?
  • Did you grow up in a religious household? Did you ever try various other sects?
  • Was your conversion immediate or did you ruminate on the matter for a while. If the latter, how long did the transition take?
  • Was the personal transition difficult or did the decision seem clear and unambiguous?
  • Was the public (not a good word; I mean outward) transition easy or difficult? I'm thinking of spouse, kids, extended family, previous church, etc.
  • Was any training involved during the transition? Or classes?
  • After you completed becoming a Mormon, did you ever have second thoughts?
  • You seem to be knowledgeable about sources of information about Mormonism. How long have you been a member of the church? Many Christian churches have ongoing bible studies. Does your church do that? Do you participate?
  • Etc.
Thanks in advance.

ETA: Mods, this thread is about the LDS so it seems to me that Janadele's own involvement is not off-topic.
 
Last edited:
The Lord has given all the evidence he needs to give.

Where is it?

Every opportunity has been given to mankind to be able to progress through the eternities.

One eternity isn't enough?

Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.

I'm good with that.

Weren't you leaving? I seem to recall you stating you could no longer participate in this thread.

Here's a question: why Joseph Smith? Why not someone else? What made him so special he was singled out for divine sanction? Did God like his particular con?
 
Sez me: Please read my previous posts as these already answer your questions... if you then have more questions regarding my conversion to the LDS Church, I will be then happy to answer those as well. :)
 
But the more I read through things, the more I sense that JS stumbled into it with no real foresight and no plan at all. I tend to agree with Pup that once the ball was rolling, it just rolled him up and took him with it.

One thing worth considering is the context of how a lot of people came to religion at the time. This was the era of wild, multi-day camp meeting revivals, and the idea of having a religious, conversion experience was common enough that there was social pressure to do it, and somehow, people managed to comply. Religion wasn't necessarily a dry, calculated decision.

From a couple longer articles on revivals in New England in the period:
http://www.teachushistory.org/secon...ligious-revivals-revivalism-1830s-new-england

The excitement of the prayers and preaching caused many people to be "slain," that is fall prostrate in front of the stand; or to dance, shout, and clap their hands. At times people spoke in tongues.

http://www.crookedlakereview.com/books/saints_sinners/martin7.html
Finney used many of the emotionally arousing techniques in his early revivals, practices which had been successful in frontier Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky, on the real frontier. In time he tried to avoid the excesses which were typical of those mid-Western frontier revivals which led to convulsions, trances, and mass hysteria. In Kentucky, for example, under the excess of emotion whipped up by energetic preachers, converts would get down on all fours and "tree the Devil" and bay like hounds at the foot of the tree. In frontier revivals, psychogenic ills could be cured—or caused. Finney avoided the extremes of this type of revivalism.

So you had people who were seeing visions, fainting, acting hysterical, and New York state was just barely a notch below the wildest stuff at Cane Ridge, KY, for example. This was what teenagers were doing, instead of going to rave parties. :) And it was socially acceptable for all ages--even praised.

People didn't necessarily always have their experience right at the revival. Going off into the woods to pray and work through their problems alone was another common behavior.

Joseph Smith's famous "first vision" is well within the norm for this kind of thing. You can see an account of it here:
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html

A random similar example of prayer alone in the woods that leads to a spiritual breakthrough, though not quite as vision-like:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JaGg2kz4j3cC&pg=PA206&output=html

Smith took it farther than most young men, who just contentedly joined the local Methodist Church or whatever, after having their big breakthrough experience. But he seems to be someone who was peculiarly gifted with imagination and fantasy, and it's natural that he interwove all that with the fervor of religion that was expected at the time.

He reminds me of the kind of young man today who's so into a superhero or a computer game or whatever, that that's all he talks about, knows all the characters, all the details, dresses up for the conventions. On one level, he knows it's not real, and he may also be a computer hacker and swindling people at the same time because he's darned smart and enjoys the risk and excitement of the black hat stuff (no pun intended), but on another level, he gets a boost from pretending it's all a real grand adventure, and the emotional reward is just indescribable.

And it just takes over his life.
 
The matters you are discussing are not the work of man, but the work of God. :)

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/...79179acbff00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0

On a spring day in 1820 14-year-old Joseph Smith sought solitude in a grove of trees and prayed to know which church was true. God the Father and Jesus Christ, "two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description," appeared and spoke with him... Joseph Smith's first vision stands today as the greatest event in world history since the birth, ministry, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=91fa0fbab57f0010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

14 years old? Or was he 16 years old, as in the earliest known account that JS dictated about his first vision? "In the 16th year of my age, the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord." It was several years later that the First Vision changed from "the Lord", to "personages" and finally the official version given by the church today. You'd think he'd remember something kind of important like that.

On the night of September 21, 1823, Joseph Smith prayed to know God's further will toward him. Steadily a light grew "as though the house was filled with consuming and unquenchable fire." Moroni, a messenger sent from God, stood before him. In mortal life Moroni had been the last of ancient American prophets having authority from God and whose teachings were recorded for our time.

Moroni declared "that the time was at hand for the Gospel in all its fullness to be preached in power, unto all nations" and that Joseph was "to be an instrument in the hands of God" in that work. He quoted ancient prophets who had foreseen that this time would come. As Moroni stood before him Joseph was shown in vision "the place where the plates were deposited.

God gave Joseph Smith the gift and power to translate writings recorded centuries ago in a language of which Joseph had no knowledge.

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/...b84d09042010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0

And despite JS getting these one-on-one visits from above, oddly his mother and brothers Hyrum and Samuel, still continued to attend the local Presbyterian Church until their names were stricken from the records in 1830 for having been absent from meetings for the last year and a half. So for approx five years after this wondrous occurrence, his own family seems to have been completely uninterested in the fact.

"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels," the ancient prophet John the Baptist announced on May 15, 1829, when sent by God to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at Harmony, Pennsylvania.

Weeks later, Peter, James, and John, who possess "the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times," appeared to Joseph and Oliver and conferred upon them the Melchizedek Priesthood. Now the fulness of the gospel could be restored, the Church of Jesus Christ could be organized to "roll forth," and all the ordinances necessary for the salvation of God's children could be performed—including bestowing the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Of course, at that time "all the ordinances" essentially included things like laying on of hands, anointing with oil, etc. The sort of things many churches engage in, and that you read about in the Bible. Strangely, it's only after JS became a Mason that the rest of the ordinances show up--curiously akin to the same Masonic rituals that he'd just learned. Though no doubt, that's just another coincidence.
 
Last edited:
The Lord has given all the evidence he needs to give. Every opportunity has been given to mankind to be able to progress through the eternities. Each individual is responsible for their own salvation. Ignore the Gospel of Jesus Christ at your peril, and spend the eternities regretting the decisions made in mortality.


Once upon a time there lived a Jade Lane. Jade dwelt in a low-lying area near a mighty river. Unfortunately for Jade, heavy rains and an early spring meant heavy flooding for her and her neighbors. The entire community prepared for evacuation. All except Jade Lane. Instead she prayed to her almighty maker for protection.

When the evacuation bus drove up to Jade's house, waiting for her to board with all her neighbors to be carried off to safety, Jade just waved and said, "The Lord will protect me." And then she prayed.

Eventually the flood waters came. A local townsman motored up in a small boat and begged Jade to get in so the he could get her to safety. Again, Jade just waved and said, "The Lord will protect me." And then she prayed.

The flooding continued, and Jade found herself on her roof-top to stay above the rising tide. A rescue helicopter approached, but once more, Jade just waved and said, "The Lord will protect me." And then she prayed.

Finally dead from drowning, Jade Lane stands before her God, wet and very confused. "Why didn't you save me?", she pleads.

"What do you mean?", says God. "I sent a bus, a boat, and finally a helicopter, but you'd have none of it."

The story has a moral, of course....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom