LDS

[jsfisher]

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb2.shtml#top

http://mormanity.blogspot.com.au/2004/09/joseph-smith-and-comoros-islands.html

I struck me that the Captain Kidd / Moroni connection was a bit of a reach. The second link is a fair rebuttal. (I didn't spend much time with the first link, so I have no comment on it.)

 

[DragonLady]

The Mormons try to claim that by ''deer'' Smith really meant ''goat'', ''tapir'' or ''llama''. I have rarely seen a more pathetic excuse. The page also mentions the authors of the BOM. I thought that god was supposed to have dictated it.

http://www.mormonfortress.com/horse.html


Mormon fortress? More like a paper house.

Yes; that paper makes a fairly decent argument about human confusion. But it doesn't explain God's confusion. According to that article, God could have been talking about any large, four-legged beast. Call me perverse, but reading it instantly made me think of the old Rumplemintz ads.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/neflhim/2557876348/lightbox/

 

[Olowkow]

I struck me that the Captain Kidd / Moroni connection was a bit of a reach. The second link is a fair rebuttal. (I didn't spend much time with the first link, so I have no comment on it.)

The Captain Kid/Moroni connection is definitely a "reach", but I thought the "rebuttal" was just hand waving, and another reach, myself. Essentially the claim against the connection is "Meh, coincidence".

Not convincing, but good enough until more evidence is found.

 

[jsfisher]

Okay...so tell me about the magick hat?

One method of "glass looking" -- the crime of which Smith was convicted -- was to place a stone or glass object in a hat, then hide ones head in the hat to foresee the location of buried treasure or whatever, for a fee, of course. Supposedly, Smith was familiar with this technique, but I don't recall if it was mentioned in the records of his conviction.

At any rate, on a completely different subject, Smith was able to translate the plates by placing a stone or two in hat then hiding his head in the hat to look at the stones in the dark. The plates themselves did not need to be present. While staring at the stones in the blackness of his hat, the English translation of the next part of the plates would appear. Once transcribed and read back to verify, the words would vanish and be replaced by the translation of the next part.

 

[DragonLady]

The plates themselves did not need to be present.

So why did he claim to find them at all?

Something doesn't seem to add up...I guess I have to think about that for a while.

 

[jsfisher]

So why did he claim to find them at all?

Something doesn't seem to add up...I guess I have to think about that for a while.

Well, the stones were with the plates, after all. He needed to get the plates in order to get the stones to translate the plates he didn't otherwise need. Are you following all this?


ETA: Now, the question you should really be asking is where'd he get the hat.

 

[DragonLady]

Well, the stones were with the plates, after all. He needed to get the plates in order to get the stones to translate the plates he didn't otherwise need. Are you following all this?


ETA: Now, the question you should really be asking is where'd he get the hat.

Okay; I'll bite. Where did he get the hat? And where is the hat now?

 

[RandFan]

Well, the stones were with the plates, after all. He needed to get the plates in order to get the stones to translate the plates he didn't otherwise need. Are you following all this?

It should be noted of course that he already had seer stones and had used those stones in the same manner he used to "translate" the BofM.

Smith owned at least two seer stones, which he had earlier employed for treasure seeking before he founded the church.[1] Other early Mormons such as Hiram Page, David Whitmer, and Jacob Whitmer also owned seer stones.[2] Seer stones are mentioned in the Book of Mormon and in other Latter Day Saint scriptures. James Strang, who claimed to be Joseph Smith's designated successor, also unearthed what he said were ancient metal plates and translated them using seer stones.

 

[Janadele]

Wiki cites from anti-Mormon propaganda and does not usually present the true facts regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Much of the information found at Wikipedia regarding the LDS Church is false and misleading.

 

[DragonLady]

Wiki cites from anti-Mormon propaganda and does not usually present the true facts regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Much of the information found at Wikipedia regarding the LDS Church is false and misleading.

Okay; Janadele, why do you believe JS went to the trouble of digging up the plates, if all he needed was a magic hat and a couple of seer stones? Where did he get the stones? And where did he get the magic hat? Where are they now?

 

[fromdownunder]

Wiki cites from anti-Mormon propaganda and does not usually present the true facts regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Much of the information found at Wikipedia regarding the LDS Church is false and misleading.

For example....?

Norm

 

[RandFan]

Wiki cites from anti-Mormon propaganda and does not usually present the true facts regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Much of the information found at Wikipedia regarding the LDS Church is false and misleading.

From the FAIR website.

Martin Harris also tells us that Joseph used the seer stone to find the gold plates. “In this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge. It was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates.”

The website confirms in multiple places that Smith had seer stones before he found the plates.

 

[DragonLady]

The website confirms in multiple places that Smith had seer stones before he found the plates.

Okay; so that further begs the question of why he needed the plates at all.

I *suspect* out con man had a different con in mind at first, but changed horses deer in the middle of the stream, so to speak.

 

[Pup]

So why did he claim to find them at all?

Something doesn't seem to add up...I guess I have to think about that for a while.

They came as a set. From Joseph Smith--History:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.34-35?lang=eng#33

He [the angel] said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

So it wasn't like he could get one without the other; the plates and the stones would be given at the same time.

And sure enough, he supposedly found them right together:

Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger.

Honestly, I expect that the hat ritual was one he'd become comfortable with to help him concentrate--the whole complex story, told line by line slow enough for someone to write it down, required him to keep a lot straight in his head--and the plates themselves were either a suggestion by the man named Walters described here, in a church-endorsed publication, or were otherwise supposed to be the main focus of the discovery, but he was simply more comfortable with the hat method when it became time to start dictating.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Wiki cites from anti-Mormon propaganda and does not usually present the true facts regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Much of the information found at Wikipedia regarding the LDS Church is false and misleading.

It seems to be that, in your eyes, a source that is not uncritically pro-mormon, toeing the entire party line, is "anti-mormon".

You are ignoring the middle ground...

 

[Janadele]

The matters you are discussing are not the work of man, but the work of God.

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/...79179acbff00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0

On a spring day in 1820 14-year-old Joseph Smith sought solitude in a grove of trees and prayed to know which church was true. God the Father and Jesus Christ, "two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description," appeared and spoke with him... Joseph Smith's first vision stands today as the greatest event in world history since the birth, ministry, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=91fa0fbab57f0010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD
On the night of September 21, 1823, Joseph Smith prayed to know God's further will toward him. Steadily a light grew "as though the house was filled with consuming and unquenchable fire." Moroni, a messenger sent from God, stood before him. In mortal life Moroni had been the last of ancient American prophets having authority from God and whose teachings were recorded for our time.

Moroni declared "that the time was at hand for the Gospel in all its fullness to be preached in power, unto all nations" and that Joseph was "to be an instrument in the hands of God" in that work. He quoted ancient prophets who had foreseen that this time would come. As Moroni stood before him Joseph was shown in vision "the place where the plates were deposited.

God gave Joseph Smith the gift and power to translate writings recorded centuries ago in a language of which Joseph had no knowledge.

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/...b84d09042010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0
"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels," the ancient prophet John the Baptist announced on May 15, 1829, when sent by God to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at Harmony, Pennsylvania.

Weeks later, Peter, James, and John, who possess "the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times," appeared to Joseph and Oliver and conferred upon them the Melchizedek Priesthood. Now the fulness of the gospel could be restored, the Church of Jesus Christ could be organized to "roll forth," and all the ordinances necessary for the salvation of God's children could be performed—including bestowing the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Shalamar]

It seems to be that, in your eyes, a source that is not uncritically pro-mormon, toeing the entire party line, in "anti-mormon".

You are ignoring the middle ground...

I have learned that any site that talks about the LDS church that also does not declare it all to be true, and the One True Religion^tm are full of lies told by Lucifer. At this point, I ignore Janadele. She's not interested in discussion.

 

[Slowvehicle]

The matters you are discussing are not the work of man, but the work of God.

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/...79179acbff00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0

On a spring day in 1820 14-year-old Joseph Smith sought solitude in a grove of trees and prayed to know which church was true. God the Father and Jesus Christ, "two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description," appeared and spoke with him... Joseph Smith's first vision stands today as the greatest event in world history since the birth, ministry, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don't suppose you have evidence for this that does not come from a dedicated pro-mormon house organ?

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=91fa0fbab57f0010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD
On the night of September 21, 1823, Joseph Smith prayed to know God's further will toward him. Steadily a light grew "as though the house was filled with consuming and unquenchable fire." Moroni, a messenger sent from God, stood before him. In mortal life Moroni had been the last of ancient American prophets having authority from God and whose teachings were recorded for our time.

Moroni declared "that the time was at hand for the Gospel in all its fullness to be preached in power, unto all nations" and that Joseph was "to be an instrument in the hands of God" in that work. He quoted ancient prophets who had foreseen that this time would come. As Moroni stood before him Joseph was shown in vision "the place where the plates were deposited.

God gave Joseph Smith the gift and power to translate writings recorded centuries ago in a language of which Joseph had no knowledge.

I don't suppose you have evidence for this that does not come from a dedicated pro-mormon house organ?

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/...b84d09042010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0
"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels," the ancient prophet John the Baptist announced on May 15, 1829, when sent by God to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at Harmony, Pennsylvania.

Weeks later, Peter, James, and John, who possess "the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times," appeared to Joseph and Oliver and conferred upon them the Melchizedek Priesthood. Now the fulness of the gospel could be restored, the Church of Jesus Christ could be organized to "roll forth," and all the ordinances necessary for the salvation of God's children could be performed—including bestowing the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I don't suppose you have evidence for any of this that does not come from a dedicated pro-mormon house organ?

 

[DragonLady]

Honestly, I expect that the hat ritual was one he'd become comfortable with to help him concentrate--the whole complex story, told line by line slow enough for someone to write it down, required him to keep a lot straight in his head--and the plates themselves were either a suggestion by the man named Walters described here, in a church-endorsed publication, or were otherwise supposed to be the main focus of the discovery, but he was simply more comfortable with the hat method when it became time to start dictating.

Okay....

Walters and JS become best buds and start working together to fleece the farmers by finding lost and buried treasures. One buries an object, the other "finds" it with his old hat and a couple of crystal balls. Nothing new about that scam; and I doubt it was new then.

So between them they get the idea that a buried history book would be a great idea. It would be a newsworthy find, lots of people would want to read it, and their little duo would be in demand to find other items. That makes sense. They chose a history of the Native Americans because it had already worked for Walters once before.

But why a golden book? Why the elaborate translation/dictation ritual? When did the story of the angel get born and why did JS think it would work?

Did someone, somewhere say JS had family members in the Freemasons or similar? Could that be where the idea of an angel and golden plates have come from?

This whole thing bugs me.... The Hubbard guy started Scientology quite deliberately to found a religion. But the more I read through things, the more I sense that JS stumbled into it with no real foresight and no plan at all. I tend to agree with Pup that once the ball was rolling, it just rolled him up and took him with it.

 

[jsfisher]

The matters you are discussing are not the work of man, but the work of God.

Does that make them inerrant, then? If the Book of Mormon is the flawless work of God, then why does the Church continue to amend it? If it is flawed, why does the eighth Article of Faith say it is not?

My question is sincere. I cannot reconcile these things. Can you?

By the way, I'd much prefer to hear what you yourself have to say on all this instead of travel-weary dogma you simply recite.