LDS

[kerikiwi]

If I may summarize what I think I've learned about Joseph Smith: He was a convicted con-artist. He was charismatic and well-versed in a particular money digging scam that often involved burying ones head in a hat to exclude all light while gazing at a magical stone. At some point he was visited by an angel who eventually directed Smith to the location of a collection of gold plates. The plates (which would have weighed between 100 and 200 pounds, but where no problem for Smith to lug around) were inscribed with some variation of Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Smith translated the inscriptions with the aid of a hat and a stone or two.

Later, Smith produced other great works, including the Book of Abraham translated from ancient papyri. The Book of Abraham was truly an inspired marvel since none of Smith's translation corresponds to anything recorded on the actual papyri.

Smith's body of work includes descriptions of technologies, animals, and plant life that didn't exist when and where Smith claimed they did, making his master piece a true document of faith.

That about it?

A very good precis.

 

[Foster Zygote]

If I may summarize what I think I've learned about Joseph Smith: He was a convicted con-artist. He was charismatic and well-versed in a particular money digging scam that often involved burying ones head in a hat to exclude all light while gazing at a magical stone. At some point he was visited by an angel who eventually directed Smith to the location of a collection of gold plates. The plates (which would have weighed between 100 and 200 pounds, but where no problem for Smith to lug around) were inscribed with some variation of Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Smith translated the inscriptions with the aid of a hat and a stone or two.

Later, Smith produced other great works, including the Book of Abraham translated from ancient papyri. The Book of Abraham was truly an inspired marvel since none of Smith's translation corresponds to anything recorded on the actual papyri.

Smith's body of work includes descriptions of technologies, animals, and plant life that didn't exist when and where Smith claimed they did, making his master piece a true document of faith.

That about it?

Smart smart smart smart smart.

 

[jsfisher]

A very good precis.

Thank you.

But now, I'd like to turn to a different area. What are some of the tenants and practices that are uniquely (or nearly so) Mormon that we'd view as positive?

If nothing else, there is a Mormon stereotype of wholesome morality. Stereotypes are just that, but seldom without some grain of truth. Consider Donny and Marie Osmond as an example. Yes, yes, I know far too many diabetics have suffered and died needlessly at Osmond concerts (some things really need effective warning labels), but they are the epitome of the stereotype.

What else?

 

[AdMan]

Thank you.

But now, I'd like to turn to a different area. What are some of the tenants and practices that are uniquely (or nearly so) Mormon that we'd view as positive?

If nothing else, there is a Mormon stereotype of wholesome morality. Stereotypes are just that, but seldom without some grain of truth. Consider Donny and Marie Osmond as an example. Yes, yes, I know far too many diabetics have suffered and died needlessly at Osmond concerts (some things really need effective warning labels), but they are the epitome of the stereotype.

What else?

Marriott hotels aren't too shabby, particularly the JWs. So there's that.

 

[DragonLady]

What are some of the tenants and practices that are uniquely (or nearly so) Mormon that we'd view as positive?

A couple of things I noticed when I lived in Salt Lake City:

You could leave your purse, wallet, coat, shoes, and other personal belongings on a blanket in the grass at the park unattended for hours. No person will even approach, let alone take them.

Fruit trees. The Mormons believe everything should produce. So they planted fruit trees for shade, flowers, and fruit. The whole city drips with beautifully ripened fruits for months on end -which bring the bees they love for their industriousness.

 

[skyrider44]

Janadele's statement stands: "Being celibate does not mean being alone." It seems to me you assume that sans sex, a person is ipso facto alone.

 

[Quad4_72]

A couple of things I noticed when I lived in Salt Lake City:

You could leave your purse, wallet, coat, shoes, and other personal belongings on a blanket in the grass at the park unattended for hours. No person will even approach, let alone take them.

Fruit trees. The Mormons believe everything should produce. So they planted fruit trees for shade, flowers, and fruit. The whole city drips with beautifully ripened fruits for months on end -which bring the bees they love for their industriousness.

I will definitely have to disagree with the leaving your stuff unattended part. SLC has crime just like any other city. Maybe not as high, but there is definitely crime, especially when you go to some of the surrounding cities like Murray and West Valley. Also, shoplifting is a huge problem. For some reason the kids in Utah just love trying to steal from retail stores in malls. I lived in Draper, Utah for 6 years (7th grade through all of high school), and then I come back for the holidays to visit families (I am in Utah right now). My family lives in a fairly nice suburb, and for some reason we have been absolutely terrorized living there.

Cars egged, broken in to, keyed, our house was burglarized, the robbers also decided to cut holes in everyones clothes before they left, house egged, trash cans stolen, mail stolen, etc etc. We have security cameras outside of our house now. It was absolutely bizarre, because my family is some of the nicest and caring people you will ever meet. So perhaps my view of Utah is a bit skewed, but overall I actually like the area. It's always nice to visit every once in a while. One thing that is positive for black people, is they are treated extra nice in Utah, because no one wants to look like a racist lol.

 

[jsfisher]

For someone with more ambition than I, here's a link for crime statistics. That will take you tables for the US as a whole. Scroll down for links to individual states, including Utah.

 

[Craig4]

The topic of this thread... LDS... indicates the subject is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not anti-Mormon lies, myths, fabrications, misinterpretations. I ask the anti-Mormon posters in this thread to start their own thread if they wish to post from anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.

How can you discuss the LDS and not discuss the lies contained in the founding documents? The entire belief system is based on lies and the dishonesty is interwoven into everything Mormons believe.

 

[Pixel42]

Janadele's statement stands: "Being celibate does not mean being alone." It seems to me you assume that sans sex, a person is ipso facto alone.

I don't think anyone here assumes that - I know I don't - but it makes no sense to believe that God wants people to spend their entire lives denying the sexual identity which he (presumably deliberately) gave them.

 

[Quad4_72]

How can you discuss the LDS and not discuss the lies contained in the founding documents? The entire belief system is based on lies and the dishonesty is interwoven into everything Mormons believe.

Agreed. It is literally impossible to discuss the Mormon religion and not talk about lies. The whole fairy tale was made up by a con man. I must admit though, he is a pretty good con man to keep the lie going for many many years after his death. So, so many gullible people out there.

 

[Pup]

But now, I'd like to turn to a different area. What are some of the tenants and practices that are uniquely (or nearly so) Mormon that we'd view as positive?

They're into frugality, not wasting money, not gambling, not going into debt, etc. They have a weird sort of recommendation for food storage, saying that everyone should keep a year's supply of food and basic necessities on hand. They also recommend things like having a garden if possible and knowing how to do basic practical skills like home canning, cooking from scratch, sewing clothes, etc.

It's sort of like survivalism, but in my limited experience they don't tend to go over into the nutty fringe by fantasizing about an end-of-the-world scenario. It's not as much preparation for the apocalypse as for preparedness in case of losing your job, a natural disaster when the store shelves get empty, etc., though I'm sure there are a few on the fringe use it as an excuse to get all ready for the zombie apocalypse.

We don't literally do the food storage thing, but we have plenty of savings, and have just naturally picked up the basic skills. I was debt-free already when I met my wife, and I probably enjoy gardening and making stuff at home more than she does.

In a lot of ways, I'm probably as culturally Mormon as she is, if not more so, and was that way even before we met, which is why our marriage works so well. On the other hand, when she wants an excuse not to follow cultural things, like the recommendation to have lots of kids, she gets to blame it on her atheist husband. Because wives are supposed to respect their husbands, she reluctantly has to go along with my choice not to make her give birth to a bunch of rug rats. So it's a symbiotic relationship.

The church also has storehouses of stuff that they give to the needy, who aren't required to be members of the church: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop's_storehouse

They're also into genealogy and preserving historical records. It's tied up with the whole concept of Baptism for the dead, but the side benefit for normal people is that a heck of a lot of historic information gets preserved, microfilmed or put online that wouldn't otherwise. Their website familysearch.org has some stuff I haven't found elsewhere online that was crucial to some research I was doing recently (early 19th century Louisiana estate records and Massachusetts death certificates, in that particular case).

 

[Craig4]

Thank you.

But now, I'd like to turn to a different area. What are some of the tenants and practices that are uniquely (or nearly so) Mormon that we'd view as positive?

If nothing else, there is a Mormon stereotype of wholesome morality. Stereotypes are just that, but seldom without some grain of truth. Consider Donny and Marie Osmond as an example. Yes, yes, I know far too many diabetics have suffered and died needlessly at Osmond concerts (some things really need effective warning labels), but they are the epitome of the stereotype.

What else?

Oh sure, Mormons are fine as neighbors. I'd just never want one to be the president.

 

[Pixel42]

I'd just never want one to be the president.

Is that because of specific Mormon beliefs, or just because you'd prefer a president with a greater capacity for rational thought than buying into those beliefs would indicate?

 

[Craig4]

Is that because of specific Mormon beliefs, or just because you'd prefer a president with a greater capacity for rational thought than buying into those beliefs would indicate?

Being taken in by Mormon "scriptures" show a level of gullibility that is inconsistent with having the authority to order the launch nuclear weapons. Of course it would be far better to have a non-believer as president. If though we one isn't on offer, I'd prefer one who goes through the motions or uses religion as a cynical tool to one who falls for the BoM.

 

[Ambrosia]

Not really. I think you're missing the concept, which I guess is mind-boggling for those who are used to normal Christian culture, that the LDS church believes that revelation is ongoing. To them, modern revelation is just as scriptural as what's in the Bible. God can speak to prophets today just like he could in Biblical days. God could make a new pronouncement tomorrow that's just as official, binding, whatever you want to call it, as anything printed in the Bible, in the same way that he dictated the Bible.

Yeah pretty mind boggling. Who gets selected as a prophet, how does the selection process work, and after selection how does what they say after, compare to the things they said before, would be questions that sprung to mind immediately. Aside from the "if God said X at time Y, and now says Z, was God wrong at time Y? and what about the followers that missed the meeting when he said Z"

You're missing the part where Mormons claim it was translated by divine inspiration. In other words, the Bible was translated by men, while the Book of Mormon was translated by God.

they have a pretty loose definition of "translate".

Um, I think your ignorance of LDS doctrine and history is showing here. The Book of Mormon hasn't been revised with any significant changes

Possibly you're mixing it up with the Doctrine and Covenants?

I thought Doctrine & Covenants was part of the book of Mormon. Clearly I am very wrong.

You seem to be coming at this from a modern Jewish-Protestant/Catholic-centered view, starting with a baseline that the "normal" Judeo-Christian viewpoint is okay, but anything besides that is weird. I'm coming from the viewpoint that all religion is equally weird,

I think some variants are more weird than others. I am using the "normal" Christian baseline as that is what I am very familiar with. I do agree that all religion is weird though.

Bottom line: People who are used to traditional Judiasm-Christianity aren't used to what it's like to see a similar religion start virtually from scratch within the last 200 years.

Since you pointed that out I guess that if we were back in Roman times and observing the "birth of Christianity" then we might well be having a similar conversation about "how nuts those new religious people are"

I think that all religion essentially boils down to some people discovering that people are suckers for a good story, and will cede money and power to "priests" who tell them what they want to hear. People want to be rich and powerful.

 

[Pup]

Being taken in by Mormon "scriptures" show a level of gullibility that is inconsistent with having the authority to order the launch nuclear weapons. Of course it would be far better to have a non-believer as president. If though we one isn't on offer, I'd prefer one who goes through the motions or uses religion as a cynical tool to one who falls for the BoM.

That's an interesting take on it. I always figured that it would be best to have an honest president (yeah, I know), whose words matched his actions. At least then you'd know up front what he stood for. Hadn't really thought about the advantages of a dishonest president, who was known to say one thing but do something else.

In actuality, though, it seems like most are dishonest enough, or shrewd enough deep down, not to actually believe or follow what their religion says, regardless what it is.

Whenever a politician with an oddball religion is mentioned and someone doesn't want to vote for him/her because of it, I tell people, imagine if your only choice in every election was between candidates who all think you deserve to be tortured.

On the general topic of giving more weight to cultural practices than God's supposed instructions...

Here's an example of how LDS members ignore advice that they believe is direct from God. The Word of Wisdom, the same thing that instructs Mormons not to drink alcohol, instructs them not to eat meat in the summer.

Being a teetotaler, or a vegetarian, or someone who doesn't eat much meat, or even someone who avoids caffeine and therefore tea and coffee, are all fairly within the range of normal in modern society, but I don't know of any widespread category of people who only eat meat in the winter.

Therefore, not one Mormon I know follows that, or even acknowledges that it's part of the Word of Wisdom. The church website even truncates the quote to make it say what Mormons actually do: eat meat year round, like most people.

http://www.lds.org/topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng

The flesh “of beasts and of the fowls of the air,” which is “to be used sparingly” (see D&C 89:12-13).

But D&C 89:13 says:

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

So unless it's winter, or there's a famine, or it's cold in the summer--hmm, maybe the Australians get a pass here--God doesn't like people to eat meat. Plain as day. No meat on a warm summer day. But nobody notices or cares, because it's not about following God's advice, it's about doing what others do, like any religion.

(I don't know any LDS who use tobacco to treat sick cattle, either, but that's another matter...)

 

[Pup]

Since you pointed that out I guess that if we were back in Roman times and observing the "birth of Christianity" then we might well be having a similar conversation about "how nuts those new religious people are"

I think that all religion essentially boils down to some people discovering that people are suckers for a good story, and will cede money and power to "priests" who tell them what they want to hear. People want to be rich and powerful.

Yep, I think that's about it.

Despite being raised in plain old Judeo-Christian America, somehow the concept of Christianity as "normal" never really took for me. So I'll stand with other atheists who say any given religion is weird, but I'll defend a minority religion when people attack it for being more weird than "normal" Christianity, whether it's voodoo, Jedism or LDS. It's why I wasn't put off when my wife first told me her religion, any more than if she'd said Methodist or Presbyterian.

I actually think that Christians can manipulate the non-religious into giving them power, by saying, "you wouldn't want to have one of those weird people in charge." So atheists vote against the candidate with the oddball religion and settle for what's left--the Protestant one, of course.

The problem is it's exactly the same philosophy that Christians use against atheists: "you wouldn't want to have one of those weird people in charge."

I'm just not comfortable supporting the majority religion's prejudice against everyone else, because in America at least, it comes right around to bite atheists in the butt.

 

[malicus]

I am perfectly aware of LDS Doctrines, all of which I fully support... whilst certainly I do not agree with the opinions of ex LDS and non believers. That you prefer to accept their interpretations and answers rather than mine does not mean that i have not given the official and correct answer... whether you and others have understood it or not.

For instance, how many times do I have to post that our Spiritual bodies are either male or female, there is no negotiation nor choice in the matter, but still you incorrectly state there is "no official stance".

Religion in a nutshell. Right there.

 

[DragonLady]

Okay...Janedele, I have another subjective question for you. Again, I just want YOUR opinion, not the official church answer, okay?

Why did God allow Cain to slay Abel?

Supposedly, God doesn't interfere with our trials. But, He did interfere with Cain. He interfered when he asked where Abel was, and he interfered again when he put a mark on Cain.

Now, God being GOD, the supernatural, preternatural, all-powerful, all-knowing had at least the several options that I, the puny human can put together in a few minutes, and probably many more.

He could have:

created Cain less prone to violence.
*talked to Cain about his homocidal rages before he slew anyone.
sent Cain to live in Nod before anyone got hurt.
accepted Cain's sacrifice to keep the peace.
rejected both sacrifices to keep the peace.
warned Abel to get the hell out of town -Nod was a safer place to be.
put a mark on Abel so that none could kill him, including Cain.

So why, in your opinion, did God allow Abel to be murdered by Cain? What, exactly, did Abel do that justified his violent death by his own brother?

*According to the KJV, God did speak to Cain. But he did not advise him against murdering anyone. All-knowing God certainly knew what was going to happen, right?