LDS

[Ambrosia]

Yes, I have been there. [Merthyr Tydfil] It is a beautiful area of Wales.

Really?

I used to live in Brecon. I have been to Merthyr Tydfil many times. Beautiful is about the last adjective I would use to describe it.

In my experience it was a run down old Welsh valley mining town. Though I understand it has a fascinating history and was a major player in the industrial revolution, it just isn't beautiful.

The surrounding area is both spectacular and beautiful, the town itself isn't.

Meh. Eye of the beholder and all that I guess.

 

[Ambrosia]

. Folks, I was her. I spent two years debating with people trying to save them. Plus after my mission I spent many years trying counter lies and propaganda against Mormonism.

How did you get from there to Mormon atheist?

I was brought up in a Baptist Christian household, my parents and one of my siblings remain staunch believers, I'd consider myself agnostic today.

I believe in live and let live and have somewhat of a gentlemans agreement with my family. They don't preach at me and I don't preach at them. It saves on a lot of arguments.

I'm curious as from the outside looking in, Mormonism to me seems completely off the scale nuts compared to some other variants on Christianity.

 

[catsmate]

The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.

And gets changed whenever the "church" feel it convenient.

<snip>The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

Really? So Mormons now deny the reality of the Big Bang, fission, fusion and radioactive decay.............

I wonder if technetium is the Mormon equivalent to kryptonite.

In fact most christian are "paulinist" .

Now that's an interesting point, the degree to which today's xian sects relate to the Petrine/Pauline divide.

 

[RandFan]

Yeah, you're probably right. I have debated with Jehovah's Witnesses who often say give the same "I refer you to the dogma of XYZ" as their answer to questions or arguments that are about the very dogma of XYZ.

Me: "How can I trust the accuracy of this Biblical source?"
JW: "Because the Bible tells us it is the Word of the Lord." etc...

Interestingly, the Mormon missionaries I meet here in Japan have never tried to overtly proselytize to me but have generally been friendly and polite. Is that because they are also asked to try to raise the image of the Church or could it be that most of them just happen to be nice people?

However, this kind of thing is the type of thing I am talking about:

Oh I understand. It's frustrating. Religion is a parasitic meme that rewires the brain. It evolved with self protecting strategies. If you've not seen it I recommend Dan Dennetts's video on the Lancet Fluke. A biological parasite that rewires the brains of its hosts for its own purposes. Dennett makes the case that religious memes do the same to their hosts.

 

[dafydd]

Really?

I used to live in Brecon. I have been to Merthyr Tydfil many times. Beautiful is about the last adjective I would use to describe it.

In my experience it was a run down old Welsh valley mining town. Though I understand it has a fascinating history and was a major player in the industrial revolution, it just isn't beautiful.

The surrounding area is both spectacular and beautiful, the town itself isn't.

Meh. Eye of the beholder and all that I guess.

The area is nice. Merthyr Tydfil is a dump. It has a Mormon church. Not that two are connected.

 

[RandFan]

How did you get from there to Mormon atheist?

To much detail to go into here so I'l summarize and edit most of it out. There were some epiphanies along the way. One while I was on my mission. I wanted desperately to convert people and I spent much of my time thinking about why it was so difficult. I understood that until people question their held beliefs they couldn't find the truth. So I spent a lot of time thinking of the best ways to get people to question themselves. And it occurred to me, if I wanted them to question their beliefs, shouldn't I question mine? That caused some cognitive dissonance and more reflection. 15 years later I was introduced to the Monty Hall problem. I refused to accept that my intuition could be wrong and set about trying to "solve" the problem. I realized that the only way to reconcile my belief with statistical fact was to question my belief and not the facts. Elementary. Then it was James Randi > skepticism > psychology > philosophy > questioning > debating > 5 stages of grief.

I was brought up in a Baptist Christian household, my parents and one of my siblings remain staunch believers, I'd consider myself agnostic today.

I believe in live and let live and have somewhat of a gentlemans agreement with my family. They don't preach at me and I don't preach at them. It saves on a lot of arguments.

I'm curious as from the outside looking in, Mormonism to me seems completely off the scale nuts compared to some other variants on Christianity.

Understood, nuts is relative. Looking back Noah's Ark, talking snakes, witches, talking donkeys, walking on water, water into wine, living for 3 days in the belly of a fish, pretty damn nuts.

 

[RandFan]

Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.

People are posting their evidence for the claims. You can't simply dismiss their evidence as a fabrication. You need to address the claims and the evidence for those claims.

 

[Mojo]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

How many One True Churches are there? Has anyone been keeping count?

 

[Janadele]

You are blessed with such a wife. My best wishes to her.

... Oddly enough, my wife, a current member and returned missionary, answered just as you did and disagreed with my proposed answer above, and she's usually pretty solid at doctrinal sources, but she also couldn't offer a doctrine-based reason for how she could know which things were eternal and which might be subject to future revelation...

 

[DragonLady]

Sadly, I think you're right. I find discussions with her are far less frustrating if you think of her not as a flesh and blood person with a mind of her own, but as an LDS search engine with an incomplete index and limited comprehension of language processing.

This. Mormon beliefs read like an extended session with Cleverbot. Having been raised in a hellfire-and-dalmations church myself, I'm overly familiar with people who cannot even hold a reasonable conversation because they just can't think past the doctrine they've been taught. There simply is no "bigger picture" for them to contemplate.

 

[RandFan]

This. Mormon beliefs read like an extended session with Cleverbot. Having been raised in a hellfire-and-dalmations church myself, I'm overly familiar with people who cannot even hold a reasonable conversation because they just can't think past the doctrine they've been taught. There simply is no "bigger picture" for them to contemplate.

Exactly.

 

[Janadele]

Your blessed sister will have received her reward for her faithfulness. Rejoice in this knowledge and follow her path

My sister was very receptive, and was converted to Mormonism very easily. Although she was a good and very much loved, now late sister (was tragically killed in a road accident in 1983), she was also very gullible. She told me once that she was divinely receiving help with her monthly finances, that is the 90% left, after the church took their cut. For her, it wasn't a matter of being prudent and diligent with income and spending, or the math of the household balance sheet. It was her god, miraculously intervening to help her stay in the black each month. I miss her vulnerable innocence, so much.

 

[RandFan]

Your blessed sister will have received her reward for her faithfulness. Rejoice in this knowledge and follow her path

The glory of god is intelligence lemmings.

Janadele, enough with the rhetoric. Could you respond substantively?

 

[DragonLady]

Janadele (and other Mormons who feel qualified), I have a question for YOU. The answer is subjective, and requires YOUR opinion. I'm sure it's not going to be found in the scriptures, or the official church doctrine. It's also possible that as you live in Australia, and may have never been to Salt Lake City, that you have no idea what I'm talking about. If that's the case, I understand completely.

Question: Why do so many LDS members appear to "glow"?

I swear, the vast majority of those born and raised in the LDS church shine. They have something peculiar to their complexions. I kinda noticed it several times with regard to various individuals when I attended the University of Utah. But when I attended an LDS church service, I looked out over the congregation and was suddenly struck by the idea that if we turned out the lights the whole group would glow in the dark.

I've been all around the country. As a result of being in dozens of foster homes, I've attended all kinds of churches. I've lived with health nuts, booze hounds, and everyone between. I've seen groups of people with alll kinds of common denominators. But the LDS folks are the only ones I've ever seen that shine like they're carrying lightbulbs in their garments.

I welcome your opinion(s).

 

[Nay_Sayer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homose...Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#cite_note-8

So I'll ask, Why is the LDS so against two same sex people wanting to be married?

(I already know the answer)

 

[Ambrosia]

To much detail to go into here so I'l summarize

Thanks for the answer.

Understood, nuts is relative. Looking back Noah's Ark, talking snakes, witches, talking donkeys, walking on water, water into wine, living for 3 days in the belly of a fish, pretty damn nuts.

No argument from me there.

I view religion as a book of stories that religious leaders use to get people to give them money and power. Same way that parents make **** up to get their kids to behave.

"Follow these rules, or burn in eternal hell" "Be good or santa won't bring you presents" "rat on your pop and Keyser Soze will get ya"

Some stories are more fantastical than others.

I understand that people can get a lot of comfort from religion. I get that often the community is a very good thing. I think that in fact the basic teaching of Christianity, "do onto others, as you'd want them to do onto you" is a really good tenet to live by.

If you could distill that out of religion and dump all of the other baggage, I might sign up for that one.

 

[Agatha]

Randfan, that's admirable. I'm in awe of how much work and soul-searching you must have done to critically examine your previous faith and seen it for the con-job it is.

 

[halleyscomet]

I think that in fact the basic teaching of Christianity, "do onto others, as you'd want them to do onto you" is a really good tenet to live by.

If you could distill that out of religion and dump all of the other baggage, I might sign up for that one.

The "Golden Rule" has been articulated by just about every major religion out there at one point or another. You might want to look into some of the agnostic / atheist takes on Buddhism.

Are Skepticism and Buddhism compatible?

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

In that you are correct, it was not. But neither were the opposing posts.

As I consider my earlier previous posts were worthwhile, and you do not, then what is the point ?

Theology can be considered a subset of logic, as long as the baseline assumption is that god exists and all else is logically deduced from that. While I disagree with the underlying assumption, as it is its self unsupported, I respect the practice of theology and theologians. On the other hand, what you're doing when you put forth your dogma as proof of your dogma is not logic or theology, but merely a more than typically obvious example of circular reasoning. When I say 'say something intelligent' that could just as easily be said 'say something that can be supported by logic and isn't dependent on circular reasoning' or 'show us that you're a thinking, reasoning being, and not a gibberish reciting tool'

 

[tsig]

How many One True Churches are there? Has anyone been keeping count?

Every church is the One True Church.