Mormon women plan 'Wear Pants to Church Day’

Janadele said:
Rand, As you should be aware, this is not nor has never been LDS Doctrine.
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Brigham Young was the mouthpiece of god. Brigham Young was the prophet.

Brigham Young said:
I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture
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When Brigham Young said it, it WAS official doctrine. Had you lived then and spoke out against Young's teaching you very likely would have been excommunicated for backbiting.
 
Janadele said:
No, this is not in anyway comparable.

That the responsibility of the Priesthood was withheld from worthy males of Negro descent for a short period of time, was for a purpose known only to the Lord. It was His decision and His alone and not for mere mortals to question... nor is it their business how the Lord directs His Church.
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Muslims can make the same claim for abusing women and dressing them in garbage bags (burqas). We live in a society and we have every right to speak out against abuse and racism. The Mormon Church policy against blacks made them second class citizens and fed into the stereotypes and abusive attitudes.
 
Rand fan are you being mean to our LDS member?

Asking tough question?

Being skeptical?


Good
 
Janadele said:
If they wish to abide by Eternal Law they will choose Celibacy.
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Wow. These individuals cannot experience romantic love or intimacy because the Mormon church does not understand biology?

I could not worship a being so cruel as a god that would allow a child to innocently be born with ambiguous gender and then order that child to never seek companionship. Hasa diga eebowai.

Warning, the following video is NSFW.

 
Janadele said:
If they wish to abide by Eternal Law they will choose Celibacy.
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Fascinating.

In order to obey the God who gave them non-standard bodies, they have to remain celibate and alone for their entire life.

Is that official LDS doctrine on hermaphrodites, or just your opinion?

How do you justify God doing something so immensely cruel and isolating to a person?

Do you know what it means when someone is a hermaphrodite or intesexed?
 
When a Prophet of God, speaks as a Prophet he is speaking for Jesus Christ. At all other times he speaks as a mortal, as do we all.
RandFan said:
Brigham Young was the mouthpiece of god. Brigham Young was the prophet.
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"Brigham Young's comments can be read as a condemnation of abuse and rape of helpless black women.
In 1863, couplings between black women and white men would virtually always be a relationship of a staggering power imbalance, with few rights for the woman, who was often forced into sexual activity. Her children would have been automatic slaves if she was a slave, and the men under no legal responsibility to provide for her or the children.
Brigham was far more worried about white men abusing their position of political and cultural superiority.This is not to say that Brigham did not share some ideas about the desirability of keeping races separate; virtually everyone of his era did. American ethnologists taught that whites and blacks were separately created races, the mixture of which would corrupt both... In the same speech Brigham Young condemns the whites for their treatment of blacks, and threatens punishment for white men who have what is likely forced intercourse with black women, His fire and brimstone is all for the aggressor; his sympathy is for those who were mistreated." Fair
 
Janadele said:
Joey... Joseph was none of those things. False accusations from the followers of Lucifer mean nothing.
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Smith was a fraudster, have you not heard of the Kirtland Safety Society? And his various attempts to evade his debts by fleeing.
He also made numerous predictions and claims that proved to be rubbish, i.e.:

  • the world did not end before 1892
  • the US Congress and other elements of the US government continue to exist
  • David Patten did not go on this predicted mission, due to his unpredicted death
  • the Mormons failed to obtain any treature from Salem
  • no Mormon temple was built at Zion in Missouri
  • the nations of the Earth have utterly failed to bow to the Mormon gospel
  • Britain did not enter the US Civil War on the side of the Confederacy
et cetera, et cetera. Smith was a fake and his "religion" is likewise, just like Scientology.
 
RandFan said:
Brigham Young was the mouthpiece of god. Brigham Young was the prophet.



When Brigham Young said it, it WAS official doctrine. Had you lived then and spoke out against Young's teaching you very likely would have been excommunicated for backbiting.
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Yep, Brigham didn't have to say "thus sayeth the lord" If Brigham said it the lord said it.
 
Janadele said:
"Brigham Young's comments can be read as a condemnation of abuse and rape of helpless black women.'
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No it cant. If that's what he wanted to say he would have said it. You are engaging in ad hoc rationalization.

In 1863, couplings between black women and white men would virtually always be a relationship of a staggering power imbalance, with few rights for the woman, who was often forced into sexual activity. Her children would have been automatic slaves if she was a slave, and the men under no legal responsibility to provide for her or the children.
Brigham was far more worried about white men abusing their position of political and cultural superiority.
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Men had defacto political and cultural superiority regardless of the skin color of the wife. But your argument is really bizarre. You are saying A.) that Mormon men could not be good and obedient without a prohibition against miscegenation? B. Men are more likely to be abusive to black women?

[citations are missing for B]

This is not to say that Brigham did not share some ideas about the desirability of keeping races separate; virtually everyone of his era did. American ethnologists taught that whites and blacks were separately created races, the mixture of which would corrupt both... In the same speech Brigham Young condemns the whites for their treatment of blacks, and threatens punishment for white men who have what is likely forced intercourse with black women, His fire and brimstone is all for the aggressor; his sympathy is for those who were mistreated." Fair
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Okay, so you are making the argument that I'm taking the quote out of context, right?

Brigham Young said:
source “When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and HAVE RECEIVED THEIR RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity.” LDS “Prophet” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 143, 1854
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There are a lot more quotes out there.
 
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Yes Halley, it is official LDS teaching.

Being celibate does not mean being alone. Many who choose celibacy live happy worthwhile admirable lives, and will progress in the eternities according to their choices... as will we all.
 
“You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, UNCOUTH, UNCOMELY, DISAGREEABLE and LOW in their habits, WILD, and seemingly DEPRIVED OF NEARLY ALL THE BLESSINGS OF THE INTELLIGENCE that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been KILLED, and THAT WOULD HAVE PUT A TERMINATION TO THAT LINE OF HUMAN BEINGS. This was not to be, and the Lord put A MARK upon him, which is THE FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race — that they should be the “servants of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree.” LDS “Prophet” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859
 
Rand... Remember legal status and laws of the land were different then than they are now.
 
Janadele said:
Yes Halley, it is official LDS teaching.

Being celibate does not mean being alone. Many who choose celibacy live happy worthwhile admirable lives, and will progress in the eternities according to their choices... as will we all.
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A child born intersexed or a hermaphrodite CAN'T choose according to LDS doctrine. Right? They must be obedient or be punished. Some people choose celibacy because they find that brings them the most happiness. That's no reason to force someone who doesn't so choose to be celibate to be celibate.

This doctrine is cruel.
 
Janadele said:
Rand... Remember legal status and laws of the land were different then than they are now.
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Let's assume your premise for sake of argument, why 1978? And what about the other premises? Why couldn't Mormons be obedient to the will of god? And what about the fact that women were defacto second class citizens who also could not hold the priesthood and who could be abused by their husbands?

Why did an omnipotent god lack the foresight to say what you are saying now? Why do we need apologetics to explain things in hindsight?
 
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