Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Giordano]

It's not so much a suppression of the truth as it is looking the other way and not rocking the vaccine trillions of dollars gravy train.

For about a century the government of the largest country in the world lied to its citizens with impunity. Whatever the communists said was the absolute truth. To this day whatever the government of the most populated country in the world says is pretty much the truth or else.

It didn't matter a hoot what 10s of thousands of freethinking Clayton Solzhenitsyns or Clayton Xiaonings thought.

In the case of Chinese dissident Wang Xiaoning an American corporation provided evidence that led to his conviction.

So you are saying that China and Russia do what the USA tells them to do? To the point of poisoning their own children?

So you are saying that most of the doctors and scientists in the whole world are willing to endanger their own children, and the children whose lives they have sworn to protect, to avoid upsetting USA corporations?

And do you realize that you are blatantly equating yourself to Solzhenitsyn and Xiaoning?

I think you need to step back from your hatred of vaccines and get some perspective!

 

[Giordano]

Clayton,

Even though I am a Jewish/Atheist, and you and I disagree about almost everything, I do sincerely and honestly wish you and your family a wonderful holiday season and a happy new year. If Merry Christmas applies to you, then that too!

My family is a mix, so I will be celebrating multiple holiday traditions and sentiments. It may be confusing, bur somehow it always works out okay...

 

[Acleron]

When I've seen fish caught on a line, they eventually stop flopping around. But Clayton's arguments, when caught on a fact, seem to keep flopping around for pages and pages...

Amphibious arguments?

 

[pakeha]

I love Hollandaise and Bearnaise sauce. I've been fat fingering them into my system for years. Help!!!!!

TMI, dafydd, even for a sciency sub-forum

Thanks for your expert legal opinion.

Here is a good summary on the (non-)relationship between MMR and Autism from the AMA.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/phy...ric-vaccination/relationship-between-mmr.page

Oh look.......autism begins in utero and has a genetic basis (those pesky twin studies again!)

From your link, crhkrebs:
"Perhaps the best data examining when symptoms of autism are first evident are the "home-movie studies". These studies took advantage of the fact that many parents take movies of their children during their first birthday (before they have received the MMR vaccine). Home movies from children who were eventually diagnosed with autism and those who were not diagnosed with autism were shown to blinded eurodevelopmental specialists. Investigators were, with a very high degree of accuracy, able to separate autistic from non-autistic children at one year of age.

These studies found that subtle symptoms of autism are present earlier than some parents had suspected, and that receipt of the MMR vaccine did not precede the first symptoms of autism.

Adrien, J., et al. Blind ratings of early symptoms of autism based upon family home movies. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 32:617-626, 1993."

Can we put the vaxx-autism link to bed, CM?

 

[dafydd]

It's not so much a suppression of the truth as it is looking the other way and not rocking the vaccine trillions of dollars gravy train.

For about a century the government of the largest country in the world lied to its citizens with impunity. Whatever the communists said was the absolute truth. To this day whatever the government of the most populated country in the world says is pretty much the truth or else.

It didn't matter a hoot what 10s of thousands of freethinking Clayton Solzhenitsyns or Clayton Xiaonings thought.

In the case of Chinese dissident Wang Xiaoning an American corporation provided evidence that led to his conviction.

Fantasize much?

 

[crhkrebs]

It didn't matter a hoot what 10s of thousands of freethinking Clayton Solzhenitsyns or Clayton Xiaonings thought.

Wow! You actually see yourself as a modern day Solzhenitsyn or Xiaoning?

Both those men were fighting against and imprisoned by oppressive dictatorial governments. They were both fighting for human rights against a powerful entity that was REAL!

You, on the other hand, are fighting against a made up, imaginary UNREAL entity! If you really want to compare yourself to someone, how about Don Quixote? Both of you are under the illusion that you are singlehandedly fighting against a great evil, when in reality you were obliviously tilting against windmills. It's rather sad.

Unlike Solzhenitsyn or Xiaoning, we enjoy freedom of speech and we have the ability to partake in rational and meaningful discourse with others. Some people disabuse this freedom by making claims and then refusing to answer questions put to them, in the spirit of free discourse.

I don't think Alexander or Wang would approve.

PS Hope you get that Thesaurus for Xmas. "Freethinking" is not a synonym for "delusional".
Merry Xmas, to everyone here!

 

[jdc324]

And then when you are done with that, you can read this table on thimerosal amounts in vaccines in the American pediatric schedule. Then tell us which on that this are only available with thimerosal. That means that none of the vaccines that have the word "free" in the thimerosal column.

Note that several of the influenza vaccines do not have thimerosal, so it is not influenza vaccine.

Mr. Moore, you seem to have trouble answering this very simple question. This is the third time I have asked. Do you have issues reading the table? All you have to do is tell us which vaccines only come with thimerosal, with no thimerosal-free versions.

Can't you answer this Clayton? Why not?

 

[Clayton Moore]

So you are saying that China and Russia do what the USA tells them to do? To the point of poisoning their own children?

So you are saying that most of the doctors and scientists in the whole world are willing to endanger their own children, and the children whose lives they have sworn to protect, to avoid upsetting USA corporations?

And do you realize that you are blatantly equating yourself to Solzhenitsyn and Xiaoning?

I think you need to step back from your hatred of vaccines and get some perspective!

I doubt there has been a US doctor who's allowed his son to be vaccinated with the MMR in the past 5 years.

So you are saying that China and Russia do what the USA tells them to do? To the point of poisoning their own children?

USA? I cited two huge countries whose population says how high when told to jump.

Do you remember when the USSR told responders Chernobyl was safe? Remember when the USA told first responders Ground Zero was safe?


Citizens are forced to believe their government is acting in their best interests.

 

[jdc324]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
BTW childhood vaccines aren't tested on children.

You've posted this at least three times, but that doesn't make it correct. At minimum you somehow missed reading posts 3175 and 3186. And yes, the latter includes the USA studies you demanded. Oh wait, does that mean that you did read post 3175 but chose to pretend you hadn't? Or does BTW mean something other than "by the way?"- like some form of negation of what follows?

Just to save you the trouble of looking these up Clayton, here you are: #3175 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8864569&postcount=3175

Vaccine testing in children

Rotavirus: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3036442

MMR: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7851964

DTaP: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9364690

I hope those are of some help.

Merry Xmas Clayton. There are some sincere scientists in the world who also have kids.

#3186 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8864839&postcount=3186

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
Doesn't it seem odd there are no USA studies?

What like this one?

Or how about these?

And, for your Christmas present from me, here's another one. Here is the full text of a paper that looked at HPV vaccination in young people. They tested the immunogenicity and safety of the vaccine in over 500 girls aged 10-15, over 500 boys the same age and over 500 women aged 16-23. It’s worth noting that none of the serious adverse events suffered by participants was linked to the vaccine.

So you now have a bunch of studies that describe how various vaccines have been tested in a number of children of different ages. Please stop pretending that these studies don't exist.

 

[jdc324]

I doubt there has been a US doctor who's allowed his son to be vaccinated with the MMR in the past 5 years.

Tell you what, Clayton. Why don't you conduct a survey to find out how many US doctors have had their children vaccinated with MMR in the last five years? I bet it's a lot more than the zero you are expecting.

Someone actually did this in Switzerland in 2004 and found that 90% of non-pediatricians and 92% of pediatricians followed the recommended vaccine schedule for their own children. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16263976

Why don't you repeat this study in the USA and see how different your results are from the Swiss study. I bet the figure would be closer to the Swiss 90%+ than your zero.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton,

Even though I am a Jewish/Atheist, and you and I disagree about almost everything, I do sincerely and honestly wish you and your family a wonderful holiday season and a happy new year. If Merry Christmas applies to you, then that too!

My family is a mix, so I will be celebrating multiple holiday traditions and sentiments. It may be confusing, bur somehow it always works out okay...

Back at you.

 

[frenat]

I doubt there has been a US doctor who's allowed his son to be vaccinated with the MMR in the past 5 years.

You'd be wrong. How convenient that you make statements you have no intent to/can't prove.

 

[pakeha]

I doubt there has been a US doctor who's allowed his son to be vaccinated with the MMR in the past 5 years. ...

'His'?

 

[jdc324]

'His'?

Maybe Clayton's trying to improve his odds?

I wonder if Clayton knows the old riddle. A man and his son are in a car crash and the man dies on the way to hospital...

 

[Clayton Moore]

What few of you understand is that vaccines are not V+M=D=I

virus + man = disease = immunity

For the immune system all the players are "expected" present and accounted for.


Every change to that equation is a challenge to an immune system.

Think about it, vaccines are charged up with matter to make a weakened or whatever virus known to the immune system, vaccines also have matter in them to act as a preservative while being stored for use.

So how does the V+M=D=I immune system react to the "new players" and the revved up virus alert? What happens to the non "actual virus matter" and where does it wind up? Has medical science accounted for every bit of matter or possible misfolded protein in the modern vaccine? Can medical science account for every bit of matter or possible misfolded protein in the DPT or MMR or MMRV vaccines?


What happens to the extra matter of 8 vaccines administered in one session?

BTW The Lancet paper by Dr. Wakefield and his associates identified what seemed to be measles vaccine residue in the guts of autistic children and the severe gastrointestinal (GI) problems. All those children had received MMR.

 

[Clayton Moore]

'His'?

A woman doctor would be even less likely. Did you see the story about Dr. Oz's wife and vaccines?

 

[Chris Haynes]

What few of you understand is that vaccines are not V+M=D=I

virus + man = disease = immunity

For the immune system all the players are "expected" present and accounted for.
....

How does that work after a tetanus infection?

 

[Clayton Moore]

How does that work after a tetanus infection?

Think of "are not" as a hint.

 

[TheRedWorm]

Hey Clay, since you're here and all: Even if we were to grant you that vaccines increased the risk of autism in a small percentage of children, wouldn't the disease that they protect against be worse than 'getting' autism?

 

[pakeha]

What few of you understand is that vaccines are not V+M=D=I

virus + man = disease = immunity

For the immune system all the players are "expected" present and accounted for.


Every change to that equation is a challenge to an immune system.

Think about it, vaccines are charged up with matter to make a weakened or whatever virus known to the immune system, vaccines also have matter in them to act as a preservative while being stored for use.

So how does the V+M=D=I immune system react to the "new players" and the revved up virus alert? What happens to the non "actual virus matter" and where does it wind up? Has medical science accounted for every bit of matter or possible misfolded protein in the modern vaccine? Can medical science account for every bit of matter or possible misfolded protein in the DPT or MMR or MMRV vaccines?


What happens to the extra matter of 8 vaccines administered in one session?

BTW The Lancet paper by Dr. Wakefield and his associates identified what seemed to be measles vaccine residue in the guts of autistic children and the severe gastrointestinal (GI) problems. All those children had received MMR.

So what?
Haven't you understood yet that autism symptoms are identifiable in children before the age MMR is given?

A woman doctor would be even less likely. ...

Why is that, CM?