School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[Safe-Keeper]

Am I the only one who finds it unnerving how certain people throw the 2nd amendment around like it is some sort of inerrant Bible verse? If it severely restricted ownership of guns, would you still mindlessly support it?

I just thought the whole point of living in a free country was that you could modify your laws and constitution as neccessary?

 

[triforcharity]

Even the gun nuts in this forum seem to be against scientific research that may come up with facts that contradict their beliefs.

Really? Perhaps you can quote someone stating that? I know I'm not. Stank most likely isn't.

What I do have a problem with, is groups like the CDC studying things that aren't part of their mission. Disease. Not gun violence. Leave that to the other groups.

 

[triforcharity]

Am I the only one who finds it unnerving how certain people throw the 2nd amendment around like it is some sort of inerrant Bible verse? If it severely restricted ownership of guns, would you still mindlessly support it?

Mindlessly? Nice. And yes, absolutely. I strongly support ALL of our rights as United States Citizens.

I just thought the whole point of living in a free country was that you could modify your laws and constitution as neccessary?

Sure. I just don't support, and cannot support, removing a fundamental right to appease a few. I'd obey the law, but I certainly would not support it.

 

[Belz...]

The other is for target shooting for leisure; since there are many other things that can be used for this purpose, and even actual firearms don't need to be automatic, semi-automatic, and so on, to insist that these weapons must be available for target shooting is disingenuous.

I disagree, with that last bit though.

 

[Belz...]

All guns are designed as weapons?

I'm trying to have a serious discussion, here.

 

[Kestrel]

Really? Perhaps you can quote someone stating that? I know I'm not. Stank most likely isn't.

What I do have a problem with, is groups like the CDC studying things that aren't part of their mission. Disease. Not gun violence. Leave that to the other groups.

CDC's mission includes preventing injury as well as desease.

Collaborating to create the expertise, information, and tools that people and communities need to protect their health – through health promotion, prevention of disease, injury and disability, and preparedness for new health threats.

 

[zeggman]

Except that a gun is designed as a weapon.

Okay, it's designed as a weapon. If it isn't involved in an accident or being used as a weapon it isn't adding avoidable deaths. The same is true of cars and pools.

The fact is that all of these objects can kill, and all contribute avoidable deaths to the total.

Among the "non-criminal youth" subset of that death toll, both cars and pools contribute more than guns do, in spite of their design.

 

[thaiboxerken]

CDC's mission includes preventing injury as well as desease.

Yea, but guns don't injure or kill people......

I like how they deny that the CDC was defunded, then when proven wrong, they complain that it's not the CDC's job...

 

[JihadJane]

Santa needs more guns.

A very from the NRA

 

[rwguinn]

Just an aside;

Most gun owners are not members of the NRA, and LaPierre certainly doesn't speak for them, or even every NRA member. Under his "leadership", the organization lurched far to the right. It has become part of the reactionary right apparatus, and his involvement in the organization is why I left it. I suspect that I'm not the only one. I seldom read any of his opinion pieces or listen to anything he has to say (and I doubt I'll be reading his statement on the Sandy Hook). Any opinion I share with him is purely coincidental.

That is at least 2 of us.

 

[Nessie]

Am I the only one who finds it unnerving how certain people throw the 2nd amendment around like it is some sort of inerrant Bible verse? If it severely restricted ownership of guns, would you still mindlessly support it?

I just thought the whole point of living in a free country was that you could modify your laws and constitution as neccessary?

No you are not the only one. There are other parts of the Constitution and its Amendments that are worth noting

From the preamble, "We the People.....insure domestic Tranquility..." which does not sit well with there being a right to bear arms but no right to life.

Then Amendments can be changed as 18 abolished liquor and in 1933 Amendment 21 overturned that.

What is clear is that the pro gun lobby have made sure Amendment 2 stays and has a few restrictions as possible.

 

[joesixpack]

What is clear is that the pro gun lobby have made sure Amendment 2 stays and has a few restrictions as possible.

By "pro gun lobby", did you mean to say "a significant percentage of the voting public"? Because that's what it actually is.

 

[rwguinn]

By "pro gun lobby", did you mean to say "a significant percentage of the voting public"? Because that's what it actually is.

Nononono!
"THE GUN LOBBY"=all gun owners, who pushed the current laws through, consisting of all gun owners, sellers and producers, all of whom are irresponsible idiots who don't care about anything but guns.\

We are responsible for the current laws, which were passed by us despite objections from us that a lot of them won't work

 

[Nessie]

The pro gun lobby are the likes of the NRA and JPFO (whose mission statement is "Destroy so-called “gun control” (code words for disarming innocent people). Expose the misguided notions that lead people to seek out so-called “gun control”. Encourage Americans to understand and defend all of the Bill of Rights for all citizens. The Second Amendment is the “Guardian” of the Bill of Rights. who go out and campaign and lobby against gun control.") who campaign against gun control and preservation of the Second Amendment.

They have had a big influence on gun control and the laws that presently exist and so are responsible for the situation the USA now finds itself in, whereby it has ineffective rules and regulations which have resulted in many firearms getting into the hands of criminals and nuts.

Joesixpack, if you say that pro gun lobby is also "a significant percentage of the voting public" then they are also responsible for the mess that is US gun culture.

Rwguinn, build strawmen all you want. There may well be US gun owners out there who want UK style rules and regulations, the type that are proven to work, but I have yet to come across one.

 

[Nessie]

I can see why many gun owners do not like being tarred with the NRA brush. This Washington Post survey shows the NRA members are at the most extreme end of anti-gun control. But the non NRA gun owners are still a force which is anti-gun control.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...gun-owners-vs-the-nra-what-the-polling-shows/

All groups (no gun or NRA, gun in house not NRA, gun owner not NRA, gun owner in NRA) support no guns for the mentally ill. The is pretty much across the board support for a 5 day wait. But then move on to a national gun registry, limit number of handguns owned, the need to have police permits and a ban on handguns there is a split where the gun owners not in the NRA are closer to the NRA than the rest. Where the NRA gun owners are on their own is keeping large sized magazines and not banning semi-autos. But when it comes to the percentages gun owners not in the NRA would overall vote the same way as those in the NRA, just by a smaller margin.

So gun owners not in the NRA, if they had their way, would achieve pretty the same level of gun control as members of the NRA. They are just not as extreme.

 

[triforcharity]

Yea, but guns don't injure or kill people......

Nobody claimed that. And yes, I was wrong when I said that the CDC was working beyond their mission. Perhaps they should stick to DISEASE, as they're excellent at that.

I like how they deny that the CDC was defunded, then when proven wrong, they complain that it's not the CDC's job...

Who claimed that the CDC was defunded? Oh, wait, they're still around..... So obviously they've not been "defunded". Not even close. But hey, who needs accuracy and facts when you can use strawmen?


Do you not understand the word DISEASE?

 

[Nessie]

Nobody claimed that. And yes, I was wrong when I said that the CDC was working beyond their mission. Perhaps they should stick to DISEASE, as they're excellent at that.



Who claimed that the CDC was defunded? Oh, wait, they're still around..... So obviously they've not been "defunded". Not even close. But hey, who needs accuracy and facts when you can use strawmen?


Do you not understand the word DISEASE?

I don't know what is better, rename the CDC to the CDIAC (Centre for disease, injury and accident control) or to force them to concentrate on diseases only and give the rest of the job to another Centre. In any case they have chosen to use CDC for their full title of Centre for Disease Control and Prevention.

The word defunded works whether all funds or just part of funding is removed. Context is important to understanding.

In any case search under firearms on their site and their has been lots of study and loads of statistics. For example 'Firearms Laws and the Reduction of Violence'

http://www.thecommunityguide.org/violence/viol-AJPM-evrev-firearms-law.pdf

which concludes

"Based on findings from national law assessments,
cross-national comparisons, and index studies,
evidence is insufficient to determine whether the
degree or intensity of firearms regulation is associated
with decreased (or increased) violence. Current evidence
is inconsistent and, in general, methodologically
inadequate, based on Task Force standards, to draw
conclusions about causal effects."

and

"Review of eight firearms laws and law types found
insufficient evidence to determine whether the laws
reviewed reduce (or increase) violence."

which helps neither pro nor anti-gun lobbies or indeed anyone else.

 

[Belz...]

Okay, it's designed as a weapon. If it isn't involved in an accident or being used as a weapon it isn't adding avoidable deaths. The same is true of cars and pools.

The fact is that all of these objects can kill, and all contribute avoidable deaths to the total.

Yeah but that's a bit of a smokescreen, isn't it ? It's like comparing lighters and ovens to bombs because both can cause fires, when we're actually discussing arson.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Who claimed that the CDC was defunded?

Their research into anything gun related was defunded.

 

[GeeMack]

I can see why many gun owners do not like being tarred with the NRA brush. This Washington Post survey shows the NRA members are at the most extreme end of anti-gun control. But the non NRA gun owners are still a force which is anti-gun control.

Nope, but your persistent use of, shall we say falsehoods, to express your fear is certainly, uh, persistent. We have gun control. Gun owners generally accept that some amount of regulation is appropriate. What many of us find unacceptable are the calls for additional silly "controls" like bans of certain guns simply because they look scary to some people, outlawing auxiliary safety equipment like sound suppressors, imposing arbitrary fees or taxes, or rationing of ammunition. We keep hearing these sorts of suggestions from the irrationally fearful. What we aren't seeing is the objective evidence that these suggestions would do any more than assuage some fear.

When we're asked to accommodate other people's fears, we point out that their fears aren't based on objective, sound reasoning. We keep asking for the calls for additional regulation to be backed with sensible arguments which show that they'd actually be effective. We get willful ignorance, arguments from incredulity, hand wringing, and a lot of blaming gun owners for problems we didn't create. They do everything the can to avoid responsibility for their own fear.

After we've tried to help them understand, and they still refuse, most of us don't much care if they're scared. What we do care about is their attempts to change the rules we abide by in order to quell their own fear. Just like anything else that is subject to regulations, the laws that apply to the purchase, sale, use, and ownership of guns should be based on objective criteria and not on the irrational fears of a bunch of whiny pussies.