Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Capsid]

Doesn't it seem odd there are no USA studies?

There probably are but I only did a quick search on PubMed to answer your specific claim that

Hasn't it been proven that children's vaccines are not tested in any studies?

 

[Clayton Moore]

They've been noticed by me, Clayton. I mis-fold albumin every time I hard boil an egg. Then I eat them. OMG, will I be OK?

Seriously, how about answering some of the questions directed at yourself, instead of quote mining from dubious internet sources. That's how intelligent discourse works.

If they had any intent of reasonable discourse I would. They're nothing more than a 5 year old asking cause why 10 times.

 

[abaddon]

Doesn't it seem odd there are no USA studies?

What like this one?

Or how about these?

 

[pakeha]

If they had any intent of reasonable discourse I would. They're nothing more than a 5 year old asking cause why 10 times.

I hope that doesn't mean you think that study on twins isn't worth your consideration, CM.

ETA:
Here's the post mentioning it so you can re-read the figures involved
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8843030&postcount=3057

 

[Giordano]

Rotavirus: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3036442






MMR: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7851964



That doesn't sound good.


India?

DTaP: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9364690



Doesn't it seem odd there are no USA studies?

You've tried this before: making a broad statement about lack of testing, being shown it was untrue, then demanding US studies (which were then provided to you, and to which you never responded).

If the studies first presented to you were in the US, you would have claimed they were part of the big pharma conspiracy.

 

[dafydd]

If the studies first presented to you were in the US, you would have claimed they were part of the big pharma conspiracy.

Reality just can't win here.

 

[Giordano]

If they had any intent of reasonable discourse I would. They're nothing more than a 5 year old asking cause why 10 times.

It's obvious to all that you ignore the "hard" questions, sometimes by disappearing from the thread for days hoping the question will be forgotten. Or when you are really stuck for an answer, you try derision, such as you did here. The questions asked of you are very reasonable ones- it would be nice if you answered them.

The irony is that you haven't done well on the "easy" questions that you have choosen to answer, often citing evidence that disproves your own position or making statements about biology that are just plain incorrect. I again urge you to listen to what people hear are trying to tell you; they are much more interested in the truth than are the anti-vax sites you currently prefer.
.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What like this one?

Context Before licensure of varicella vaccine in 1995, varicella was a universal childhood disease in the United States, causing 4 million cases, 11 000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.

Do you see the absurdity of the above?

http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp

Today there are about 50 million children under the age of 12.

Any none greed driven group would investigate the why of the 11 000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.

I'd wager that some sort of unintentional parental neglect was the cause of the 11,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.
The 100 deaths,
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-515755.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/4...tal-mistakes-up-60-per-cent-in-two-years.html

 

[dafydd]

Do you see the absurdity of the above?

http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp

Today there are about 50 million children under the age of 12.

Any none greed driven group would investigate the why of the 11 000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.

I'd wager that some sort of unintentional parental neglect was the cause of the 11,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.
The 100 deaths,
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-515755.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/4...tal-mistakes-up-60-per-cent-in-two-years.html

And how does that prove any connection between autism and vaccination?

 

[zooterkin]

Do you see the absurdity of the above?

http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp

Today there are about 50 million children under the age of 12.

Any none greed driven group would investigate the why of the 11 000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.

I'd wager that some sort of unintentional parental neglect was the cause of the 11,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.
The 100 deaths,
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-515755.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/4...tal-mistakes-up-60-per-cent-in-two-years.html

What on earth are you talking about now? You appear to say that the hospitalisations and deaths attributed to chicken pox were due to parental neglect. Is that what you mean?

Even if that were so, rather than the children dying of the disease, why would you not be happy that vaccination is now preventing those hospitalisations and deaths?

 

[TheRedWorm]

I just want to ask this one more time, not because Clay will answer, but maybe he'll think for a change:

Even if we were to grant you that vaccinations caused autism is some small percentage of the population, wouldn't the prospect of children dying from easily preventable diseases assuage that risk? Or, to put it another way: Wouldn't the diseases be much worse than the slightly increased risk of autism?

 

[Dcdrac]

CM you seriously believe children's vaccines are not tested......

and by the way you have still not proved that vaccination causes autism

 

[shuttlt]

Even if we were to grant you that vaccinations caused autism is some small percentage of the population, wouldn't the prospect of children dying from easily preventable diseases assuage that risk? Or, to put it another way: Wouldn't the diseases be much worse than the slightly increased risk of autism?

There are some who take the view that they would rather take the risk that something that they, rightly or wrongly, wouldn't feel responsible for like measles harms their child than something that they would feel responsible for like autism following a vaccination. I was quite into this whole question some years ago and the few who accepted the discussion on relative risk seemed to take this view. You get similar positions in conversations on whether carrying a gun makes you safer as well.

 

[crhkrebs]

The audacity that jury rigged foreign bodies can be safely introduced into the body over and over and over in an injurious scheme is off the scale.

Good read.

injurious scheme = injection

Dodge noted.

Again, what injuries?

 

[crhkrebs]

If they had any intent of reasonable discourse I would. They're nothing more than a 5 year old asking cause why 10 times.

Pot calling the kettle black.

All through this thread you have insisted on a link between ASD and MMR vaccines. You have provided little more than anecdotal evidence from parents and links to unscientific websites, You Tube and Wikipedia.

In contrast, some of us have provided links to actual published research, which opposes your unsubstantiated claims. We then have asked you to show us real scientific evidence linking ASD to vaccination.

That request, Clayton, is how science works, and is how rational, intelligent discourse works. So once again, "Where is the research that links MMR vaccination to ASD?" Show us the evidence!

BTW, a 5 year old asking, "Why?" is not something worthy of scorn. It is the opportunity to present the questioner with a valid, honest, meaningful answer. Try it sometime.

 

[dafydd]

Clayton, you lost this argument pages ago.

 

[TheRedWorm]

There are some who take the view that they would rather take the risk that something that they, rightly or wrongly, wouldn't feel responsible for like measles harms their child than something that they would feel responsible for like autism following a vaccination. I was quite into this whole question some years ago and the few who accepted the discussion on relative risk seemed to take this view. You get similar positions in conversations on whether carrying a gun makes you safer as well.

The problem with that is that they are still responsible for their child becoming ill and possibly dying. By definition, they had the option to prevent their children from contracting these diseases, and they did nothing. Dereliction of duty, or neglectful parenting.

 

[Chris Haynes]

It's obvious to all that you ignore the "hard" questions, sometimes by disappearing from the thread for days hoping the question will be forgotten. Or when you are really stuck for an answer, you try derision, such as you did here. The questions asked of you are very reasonable ones- it would be nice if you answered them.
.

He definitely seems to be ignoring mine, and it is a very easy question. All I want him to do is look at a table and tell me which vaccines do not include the word "free" in all its rows.

And then when you are done with that, you can read this table on thimerosal amounts in vaccines in the American pediatric schedule. Then tell us which on that this are only available with thimerosal. That means that none of the vaccines that have the word "free" in the thimerosal column.

Note that several of the influenza vaccines do not have thimerosal, so it is not influenza vaccine.

I asked that a couple of days ago, and it seems he cannot open a page, look at the table and figure out which ones do not have the word "free" in all of the rows for a particular vaccine.

 

[abaddon]

Do you see the absurdity of the above?

I certainly do.

http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp

Today there are about 50 million children under the age of 12.

And your point is? Other that the number of children in the US?

Any none greed driven group would investigate the why of the 11 000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.

Despite the awful english, Are you asking why a study is not done when you have been handed a link to the very study you demand?

I'd wager that some sort of unintentional parental neglect was the cause of the 11,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths every year.

Bet all you want. The only winner at gambling is the house.

The 100 deaths,
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-515755.html

Not the same deaths.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/4...tal-mistakes-up-60-per-cent-in-two-years.html

Not from the US.

Fail.

 

[r-j]

Hospital infections are now the fourth leading cause of death in the United States, behind heart disease, cancer and strokes, according to the CDC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-515755.html

Whoa Jebus. While off topic, that is a huge number of preventable deaths each year.