Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Mister Earl]

Your pedestaling the humans making their living in science is funny.

They didn't suppress the truth. They toed the survival line by not rocking the boat.

If a person wants a career in todays science they know they will be paid by the piper. And when you get paid by the piper there isn't a Chinaman's chance in the world that you don't know that repaying the piper is job security 101.

Oh, puhleeeeeze. Clayton, do you seriously believe that you can get every single person of a very numerous profession to do exactly as they are told and to never, never blab?

Humanity simply doesn't work that way. That's why conspiracies usually fail. There's an old saying... "Two people can keep a secret only of one of them is dead." Yet you tell me, with a metaphorical straight face, and say that every scientist currently alive is part of this conspiracy?

Ok, fine. Let's say such a conspiracy exists and said conspiracy somehow has a way of subverting normal human behavior and inexplicably manages to craft the perfect conspiracy.

My question is, with this amazing powers of conspiracy, why would you bother using this perfect conspiracy to mess with something as minor as immunizations? I say minor only in comparison to a hypothetical worldwide conspiracy that could do a billion other things far more interesting to the conspiracy minded than trying to give autism to hipster parents.

 

[crhkrebs]

Clayton, how do you reconcile the fraternal and maternal twin studies with your claim that vaccines cause ASD?

 

[jdc324]

Oh look: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10855638

Alijah Williams woke up with a sunken face. Within 36 hours, the 7-year-old Auckland boy was crippled by body spasms, unable to swallow and racked with pain.
"He was screaming in agony," mother Linda Williams said.
Alijah had contracted tetanus, a potentially fatal disease which gets into the body through a wound and attacks the nervous system.
"It was hideous. He was spasming every three minutes. He was biting his tongue and bleeding. His arms were spasming and he was arching his back and his whole face and jaw was completely locked."

Sounds nasty.

That night, last Thursday, a doctor suspected tetanus, which fitted with the fact Alijah had a cut on his foot, but more importantly he had never been immunised.
Alijah was admitted to a ward but 24 hours later he was moved to intensive care, put into an induced coma and paralysed by drugs to prevent the spasms and relieve the pain.

Very nasty. It's unfortunate that he was not vaccinated.

He is no longer paralysed, but can communicate only by nodding or shaking his head. [...] Doctors have told the couple, who have two other children, Emias, 9, and Jaiya, 2, the recovery could be long.
Alijah could be in intensive care for six weeks, in hospital for four months and face a year long recovery.
Mr Williams said the disease was devastating and the family were "absolutely shocked" by it.
The couple wanted to warn other parents of the dangers of tetanus.
Mrs Williams said they made what they thought was an informed decision not to vaccinate any of their children because of concerns over adverse reactions, but had since changed their minds.
"Our two other children were immunised last Friday." [...]

"Patients often end up in intensive care and they need to be on a ventilator because they go into paralysis and can't breathe. It's a very nasty, very painful disease.
People often did not realise the seriousness of the disease and made their own assumptions about vaccines from reading incorrect information on the internet, she said.
"We hear stories from parents who say 'I wouldn't have taken the internet story so seriously if I'd known'."

The dangers of misinformation about vaccines on the internet are very real. This is just one example among many.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

Clayton, please answer my simple, one-line question of earlier, and then at least I won't think of you as badly as I do now.

Is my diagnosis of autism a death sentence?

Regards

 

[pakeha]

Glad they're not external contaminants. Now we know they are the result of messing around with the intricacies of the human body for a couple hundred years without possibly understanding what was taking place and the consequences.


This revelation is like the final back and forth head turn that connected fleas with bubonic plague. The difference is that modern science has been keeping it to themselves for about a decade at the very least.

'This revelation?'
Really, CM, do you realise how silly that sounds?
Keeping it to themselves?
Could you substantiate that claim, please?

Clayton, how do you reconcile the fraternal and maternal twin studies with your claim that vaccines cause ASD?

I've also asked this question.
CM, why are you trying to ignore this?

 

[Acleron]

...

When researching protein aggregates we soon find that they are not only dangers misfolded proteins but they are also toxic and linked to amyloidal diseases such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and Pion’s. These 160,000 doses of Aggripal were so saturated with protein aggregates that they were visible to the naked eye as floating particulate matter.

...

This is so crazy.

Protein aggregates are common place.

I suppose anti-vaxxers never eat anything cooked.

I could comment on the light dispersion of protein aggregates, it used to be used as a very sensitive non-specific test for protein but the whole thing is pointless as CM doesn't appear to be able to understand facts.

 

[Giordano]

http://experimentalvaccines.org/201...ts-recalled-particles-seen-floating-in-vials/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=46Y7RBPm-3U#!




The plot aggregates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_aggregation


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15272267

Thisat tidbit looks to be EIGHT YEARS OLD.



http://www.shimadzu.com/an/powder/sald/data/appli/app.html

Evaluation of Aggregation of Vaccines and Proteins



Hmmmm, vaccines, proteins, aggregates, and contaminating components in the same sentence. Happy Holidays.

Thanks for illustrating my point: from time to time there IS a potential problem with a vaccine. The problem is identified by one or more of the many regulators, doctors, or scientists involved in the process. Rather than be afraid of reporting the problem, they make it public and, working through existing regulatory channels, force a major powerful drug company to hold-back 160,000 doses of a vaccine until its safety is confirmed. A pretty poor conspiracy to hide the potential dangers of vaccines, isn't it?

You also proved my point about needing to educate yourself before buying into the anti-vax lies and distortions. Yes, a very small number proteins, when they aggregate, are involved in certain diseases. Prions are the best characterized of these, and are quite fascinating. But the vast majority of proteins, when they aggregate, simply stop functioning (which is the major concern with having them in vaccines). Cooking food forms protein aggregates- that's why egg whites are white when cooked, and creating/controlling protein aggregation is important in making the proper hollandaise sauce. Your websites are trying to falsely suggest that all or most protein aggregates are dangerous: it is much the same as correctly pointing out that some of the most dangerous toxins in snake venoms are proteins, but then suggesting all proteins are snake venoms.

 

[Giordano]

Your pedestaling the humans making their living in science is funny.

They didn't suppress the truth. They toed the survival line by not rocking the boat.

If a person wants a career in todays science they know they will be paid by the piper. And when you get paid by the piper there isn't a Chinaman's chance in the world that you don't know that repaying the piper is job security 101.

Not true- the vast majority of biological scientists are not paid by drug companies. They are paid by universities, colleges, state, or federal government. Job security comes from discovering exciting new things, not from "toeing the line." Rocking the boat is the path to success. If someone discovered that vaccinations caused autism, they would win the Nobel Prize!

Another theory of yours without any basis in fact...

 

[Giordano]

Clayton,

Just to clarify: is it protein aggregation in vaccines that causes autism or is it fevers and seizures? Or mercury? Or aluminum? Or sodium phosphate? Or gelatin? Or too many vaccines at once? Or vaccines put in the bloodstream that go to the gut? Or vaccines given too early? You've advanced each of these theories in just the last few weeks.

It doesn't really matter the theory you choose, however, because the scientific studies show conclusively that vaccines don't cause autism.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Yes, the concept of vaccination, and the basic safety of the idea, were established as early as the 1800s- ever hear of Jenner and Pastuer? Why do you think ridicule can negate historical fact? Yes, each new vaccine has to be tested afresh. But if anything, as technology and knowledge has improved, the safety of vaccines has further improved.

No, I'm not convinced vaccine safety has no limits. Very rarely some vaccines have had problems, but the vaccines in general use today have been shown to be safer than the risks of the diseases they protect against. I am a biological scientist and I not only trust vaccines enough to vaccinate my own children, but I am deeply grateful to every person who helped develop those vaccines. Wiithout those vaccines, there is a significant chance that at least one of my children would have died young of an infectious disease..

I will not even bother to respond to your favorite, but erroneous vaccine/fever/seizure/brain damage theory- it's already been discredited here by others. Stating that Homer Simpson would agree with your theory may not be the plus you think it is.

"the unthnkable, the incessant increasing pollution of babies bodies away from a mother's breast" has some nice alliteration in it, but otherwise is pure claptrap. I trust scientific facts, not emotional histronics.

Yes, each new vaccine has to be tested afresh.

Hasn't it been proven that children's vaccines are not tested in any studies?

And the cumulative effect of more and more vaccines, has that been studied?

Why bother? Jenner and Pasteur signed off on it 200 years ago.


http://www.particleadventure.org/other/history/quantumt.html

At the start of the twentieth century, scientists believed that they understood the most fundamental principles of nature. Atoms were solid building blocks of nature; people trusted Newtonian laws of motion; most of the problems of physics seemed to be solved. However, starting with Einstein's theory of relativity which replaced Newtonian mechanics, scientists gradually realized that their knowledge was far from complete. Of particular interest was the growing field of quantum mechanics, which completely altered the fundamental precepts of physics.

The complexities of the human body are still pretty much virgin territory in comparison. The audacity that jury rigged foreign bodies can be safely introduced into the body over and over and over in an injurious scheme is off the scale.

Do you think this is the first time in 200 years that there has been clumping in a vaccine batch?

Quote:
When researching protein aggregates we soon find that they are not only dangers misfolded proteins but they are also toxic and linked to amyloidal diseases such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and Pion’s. These 160,000 doses of Aggripal were so saturated with protein aggregates that they were visible to the naked eye as floating particulate matter.

Just what do you think those mis-folded proteins have been doing unnoticed for the past 200 years?

Don't forget they are linked to amyloidal diseases such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and Pion’s.

 

[jdc324]

Hasn't it been proven that children's vaccines are not tested in any studies?

No.

And the cumulative effect of more and more vaccines, has that been studied?

Yes.

There, now that we've cleared that up you can go back to all those unanswered posts addressed to you earlier in the thread. Why not start with the question Bram Kaandorp has repeatedly asked you? Then perhaps you can address some of the posts that Estellea and others have made. If you are able to, that is. Perhaps you simply don't have any answers to the points people have been making.

 

[Capsid]

Vaccine testing in children

Rotavirus: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3036442

MMR: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7851964

DTaP: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9364690

I hope those are of some help.

Merry Xmas Clayton. There are some sincere scientists in the world who also have kids.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Clayton, please answer my simple, one-line question of earlier, and then at least I won't think of you as badly as I do now.

Is my diagnosis of autism a death sentence?

Regards

At a guess, the answer would be a yes, and since its impossible to communicate with the dead, your question cannot be answered by CM to prevent an internal logic error.
I can't think of any other reason why such a simple and straighforward question cannot be answered.

 

[dafydd]

I can't think of any other reason why such a simple and straighforward question cannot be answered.

Clayton is hoping that we will forget about it.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Hasn't it been proven that children's vaccines are not tested in any studies?

And the cumulative effect of more and more vaccines, has that been studied?

Why bother? Jenner and Pasteur signed off on it 200 years ago.


http://www.particleadventure.org/other/history/quantumt.html




The complexities of the human body are still pretty much virgin territory in comparison. The audacity that jury rigged foreign bodies can be safely introduced into the body over and over and over in an injurious scheme is off the scale.

Do you think this is the first time in 200 years that there has been clumping in a vaccine batch?






Just what do you think those mis-folded proteins have been doing unnoticed for the past 200 years?

Don't forget they are linked to amyloidal diseases such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and Pion’s.

Yet another clear example of quote mining and misrepresentation. Protein aggregates are indeed implied to be part of the cause of the diseases mentioned.
SPECIFIC protein aggregates in SPECIFIC cells under SPECIFIC circumstances.
Cooked food is nothing BUT protein aggregates.
A bruise contains protein aggregates.
So does any part of the body where blood happens to coagulate due to a cut.
Your body has absolutely no problems with most protein aggregates, regardless of where they happen to occur.

So unless you can prove that your current focus consists of prions or other known harmful protein aggregates this whole new tangent is (again) totally pointless.

 

[crhkrebs]

Just what do you think those mis-folded proteins have been doing unnoticed for the past 200 years?

They've been noticed by me, Clayton. I mis-fold albumin every time I hard boil an egg. Then I eat them. OMG, will I be OK?

Seriously, how about answering some of the questions directed at yourself, instead of quote mining from dubious internet sources. That's how intelligent discourse works.

 

[dafydd]

Seriously, how about answering some of the questions directed at yourself, instead of quote mining from dubious internet sources. That's how intelligent discourse works.

CT fans have a different modus operandi.

 

[crhkrebs]

The audacity that jury rigged foreign bodies can be safely introduced into the body over and over and over in an injurious scheme is off the scale.

What injuries? The ones you keep claiming exist in spite of all the evidence to the contrary?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Vaccine testing in children

Rotavirus: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3036442

MMR: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7851964

DTaP: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9364690

I hope those are of some help.

Merry Xmas Clayton. There are some sincere scientists in the world who also have kids.

Rotavirus: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3036442

Clinical trials of rotavirus vaccines.
Vesikari T, Isolauri E, Ruuska T, Rautanen T.
Abstract

The clinical efficacy of candidate rotavirus vaccines has been tested in Tampere, Finland,

MMR: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7851964

A total of 164 infants were recruited, of whom 123 completed the study.

That doesn't sound good.

Address: Ida Scudder Road, Vellore, Tamil Nadu, India

India?

DTaP: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9364690

A randomized double-blind trial comparing a two-component acellular to a whole-cell pertussis vaccine in Senegal.
Simondon F, Preziosi MP, Yam A, Kane CT, Chabirand L, Iteman I, Sanden G, Mboup S, Hoffenbach A, Knudsen K, Guiso N, Wassilak S, Cadoz M.
Source

Unité de Recherche sur les Maladies Infectieuses et Parasitaires, ORSTOM, Dakar, Senegal.

Doesn't it seem odd there are no USA studies?

 

[Clayton Moore]

The audacity that jury rigged foreign bodies can be safely introduced into the body over and over and over in an injurious scheme is off the scale.

What injuries? The ones you keep claiming exist in spite of all the evidence to the contrary?

Good read.

injurious scheme = injection