School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[jimbob]

derp!

No, you totally missed the point. i wasn't saying "you anti gun people sound like you are also pro lifers"

I was saying "you anti gun people are constructing arguments based on emotion, special pleading and "save the children" in the same manner as the pro life crowd"

In other words, you sound LIKE them, but not ARE them.

Wot like this one?

From another thread:

And the US has a significantly higher homicide rate than other rich countries, and the others that stand out are also anomalous.

Note that the x-axis is a linear scale, and the y-axis is a log scale in this case, as that is easier for seeing relative multiples.

Luxembourg has a population of half a million people, so at 2.5 per hundred thousand, could be significantly altered by a single incident.

I can supply the links for the data but have posted them elsewhere.

Or this from this thread:

this is interesting:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/weaponstab.cfm
and my graphing of it.

About 70% of US homicides are committed with a gun or handgun.

The US homicide rate is about 3.5 times the UK rate, so the non-gun homicide rate is roughly equivalent.

In other words, non-gun fatal violence is roughly equivalent, not far less than other countries.

or indeed most of the posts by most of the pro control posters.

 

[BStrong]

Strange. If there is a situation that a gun might help resolve, I call the police. Calling a neighbor with a gun will probably just escalate the situation.

When every second counts, help is just minutes away.

 

[BStrong]

This is assuming the neighbor with the gun would even agree to come over. Castle Doctrine or even Stand Your Ground wouldn't be much of a legal defense if you left your house to flank a burglar in the neighbor's house.

Except in Texas.

 

[StankApe]

JimBob


you obviously haven't been paying attention. The pro gun posters have been pointing out how the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 did nothing to stop gun violence. Auto-lite pointed out that the magazine ban did nothing to change gun violence in Canada, People like BStrong have made very logical suggestions for improving the regulations (like including private gun sales in mandatory background checks) and others have shown the evidence that states and cities with some of the strictest gun laws have not seen any reduction in gun crimes.

The anti-gun people (some,of course, not all) have made emotional pleas calling gun owners "crazy" saying they have "blood on their hands" and are "happy with people dying as long as it means they get to keep their toys" there's also been a lot of ridiculous hyperbole and straw thrown around designed to generate an emotional reaction.

Sounds EXACTLY like the pro-life crowd debating abortion. Very little rational thought, very little concern for facts. Very little interest in observing the data presented by the opposing side. (it's all biased and backed by the NRA after all...even if it isn't)

It's not been a very constructive debate. It's been a lot of flailing away by the anti-gun people, and a lot of head shaking, sighing, and debunking of malarky by the pro 2nd amendment side.

 

[jimbob]

As far as gun control is concerned, is Canada actually in much of a different situation to a US state with stricter controls and no border control to stop out of state weapons?

Perhaps stricter gun control in the US could help Canada's situation.

 

[Autolite]

Strange. If there is a situation that a gun might help resolve, I call the police. Calling a neighbor with a gun will probably just escalate the situation.

I suppose it depends on the particular situation. A neighbour might be able to respond in a few minutes whereas it could take the police an hour or more.

I know that my neighbour who has children wouldn't hesitate to call on her neighbour for help if confronted by an unruly black bear. A shotgun loaded with with rubber shot tends to de-escalate the situation in a sufficiently timely manner...

 

[Polaris]

Except in Texas.

I live in Texas. I wouldn't try that here, and we have Castle Doctrine. It's not because I like burglars (I would hang them all from trees if I were King of the World), but because I don't like my chances of going off to the clink.

 

[lionking]

It's not been a very constructive debate.

Made harder by ridiculous comparisons with swimming pools, golf clubs and football.

Oh, these points are coming from your side, so they must be valid and rational.

 

[Autolite]

As far as gun control is concerned, is Canada actually in much of a different situation to a US state with stricter controls and no border control to stop out of state weapons?

Perhaps stricter gun control in the US could help Canada's situation.

You'll have to forgive me for repeating myself yet again, but it seems that the primary concern is what sort of gun control are you proposing that you feel those with criminal intent would be willing to comply with???

 

[LashL]

This thread appears to be getting rather heated. Please, everyone, remember your Membership Agreement, stick to the topic of the thread - which is not each other - be civil and polite, and address the arguments rather than attacking the arguers. I really do not want to have to start chucking swaths of posts into AAH and handing out yellow cards. Please pause a moment before you pull the trigger hit the submit reply button. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Dancing David]

I think it can be agreed upon the reason for the variances in firearm related crimes go far deeper than just gun control. The comparison to Mexico has been cited ad nauseum.

OTOH, I would be interested to learn why some feel that the same gun control initiatives that have failed in Canada might work in the States. The American government is now seriously considering restrictions that the Canadians already know have been ineffective...

Register firearms, record all sales.

That is not so hard is it, it would prevent the illegal sale\transfers of arms from the US to Canada and Mexico.

require all purchase of ammunition to involve an FOID.

 

[Autolite]

Made harder by ridiculous comparisons with swimming pools, golf clubs and football.

And anecdotes about pistol packing clowns from Winnipeg (my bad)...

 

[Polaris]

Register firearms, record all sales.

That is not so hard is it, it would prevent the illegal sale\transfers of arms from the US to Canada and Mexico.

require all purchase of ammunition to involve an FOID.

I'd be okay with this. I don't see a problem outside of paranoid Turner Diaries type fantasy.

 

[Autolite]

Register firearms, record all sales.

That is not so hard is it, it would prevent the illegal sale\transfers of arms from the US to Canada and Mexico.

require all purchase of ammunition to involve an FOID.

Canada had been doing this and has only just recently stopped (long guns, not handguns) because it was determined to be a useless, ineffective waste of resources (see posts discussing the "Ending the Long Gun Registry Act").

Criminals apparently are still able to acquire handguns illegally despite the requirement to register all legal handgun transfers.

A Canadian firearm license is required to purchase ammunition, however the Canadians have discovered that the criminals seem to be have no difficultly obtaining their bullets illegally.

Your recommendations are valid if there is reason to believe that a particular gun control measure that has failed in Canada would be effective in the United States...

 

[Polaris]

Made harder by ridiculous comparisons with swimming pools, golf clubs and football.

Oh, these points are coming from your side, so they must be valid and rational.

The point of that was that things supposedly designed solely to kill people somehow kill fewer than things designed for recreation despite being owned and enjoyed by millions each.

 

[Nessie]

What was it Eddie Izzard(I think) sai.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people

So do monkeys if you give them a gun"

Yes, the genius Eddie Izzard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mmtX6Tj74oU

and how about this chimp with a gun!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GhxqIITtTtU

 

[gumboot]

In the report I linked above only 11% of BCS violent incidents, from 2002/03 BCS interviews, even required attention from a doctor (which may be precautionary) a mere 2% of violent incidents resulted in a hospital stay. I think it's fair to say that the UK definition of violent crime is pretty broad. I'd be very surprised if the US equivalent wasn't more 'robust'.

According to the FBI, violent crime involves any crime where there is force or the threat of force, so their categorisation is fairly broad too.

I suppose my point is that US gun violence can't be explained by being a dramatically more violent society, as the UK is very violent, but has virtually no gun crime.

 

[Autolite]

Respectfully, I think it's time for me to take a powder.

I'm beginning to feel rather silly repeatedly repeating myself.
For anyone genuinely interested on what firearm control measures haven't worked in Canada and why, you can Google terms and names such as:

"Dr Gary Mauser"
"Ending the Long Gun Registry Act"
"Canadian Long Gun Registry"
"What Police Have Said About The Long Gun Registry"
"Toronto Handguns"
"Gary Breitkreuz"
"National Firearms Association"

Cheers all...

 

[Noztradamus]

True, but it was claimed that the anti gun proponents sounded like pro lifers.

I was merely pointing out that in general in the US, bible-belt conservatives tend to be against both gun control and abortion, whilst pro choice tends to co-occur with pro gun control.

There are two issues: guns, abortion

Both issues have "pro-lifers" and "pro-choicers". It may be that many cases people, whether "bible-belt conservatives" or "yankee progessives", take opposite sides, and when they do, their arguments refelct their opponents side on the other issue.

"Pro-life guns", "prolife abortion" use the similar arguments, as do "pro-choice guns", "pro- choice guns"

It's not logical, and none of the extreme positions will not get consensus with 83% of the general public, but that's just the way apes with pants are.

 

[jimbob]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/

So what have the Australian laws actually done for homicide and suicide rates? Howard cites a study (pdf) by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law’s effectiveness.