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School shooting: but don't mention guns!

Please explain how this would be done in a way that doesn't restrict rights in the same way gun laws would.


I really don't know, you can't force people to undergo treatment and you can't punish people for what they "might" do. It's really really complicated. and not all mass murderers were crazy, many were just fed up with their lives and decided to be selfish bastards.

Nobody said this issue wasn't extremely complex. People aren't all the same, parents aren't all good, bullying will happen ..... Like I said earlier, if this can happen in Norway of all places, it can happen anywhere. I'm not sure there's any way to stop it altogether.
 
Maybe you could require gun owners to demonstrate safe custody of their weapons with locked cabinets, annual checks etc. Whatever. It would not stop these incidents though. We introduced even stricter gun laws than we already had after Dunblane but we have had other mass shootings since. There is no defence that does not address underlying social ills (maybe not that either). I know that's nebulous but these incidents are recent in origin and I believe they express some modern social ill. Over to the psychologists and sociologists to work out what.

surprisingly enough this isn't all that recent of a phenomenon. I just googled "history of school shootings" and found this

http://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states


I was surprised to see so many gun incidents in the 1800's!
 
:confused: I don't consider shooting stray dogs legitimate unless its attacking, or clearly about to attack someone. And I'm a pro-gun 'merican.
It's usually only in this context (actual sign in Scotland):

warning-sign-image-2-12431001.jpg
 
~~~.

But when someone orders three guns like the ones this murderer did it needs to raise a red flag. But he was able to do it because of the NRA.

You are entitled to make up your own opinions. You are not entitled to make up your own facts.
 
You do realize that not everybody lives in safe neighborhoods, right? There are parts of my city I wouldn't live in unless I owned a gun. Heck, there are parts of it I wouldn't go through unarmed, in broad daylight.
So basically you're saying that it's easier to let people arm themselves than it is to actually "fix" said unsafe areas?
 
So basically you're saying that it's easier to let people arm themselves than it is to actually "fix" said unsafe areas?

Have you ever visited an inner city low income housing development? It really is easier to arm yourself than it is to "fix" unsafe areas. much easier
 
What's the gun crime rate in the UK?
For the most recent year figures are available (Apr 2010 to Mar 2011) for England and Wales, there were 11,227 offences for a population of 56,076,500, so a rate of 20 per 100,000. However, of that total, 4,203 were known to be air weapons (mostly criminal damage), and 1,610 were known to be imitations, and the actual number of both is likely much higher. The reality is that most of what is classed as "gun crime" here doesn't actually involve "real" guns. The overall number, though, have been falling consistently for the last four or five years, anyway.
 
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An assault rifle that can be set for automatic is good for killing a lot of people quickly only if the people are grouped together moving straight towrd/away with you - I would far rather face a full auto in the hand of a not very practiced user with a five shot rifle , a pistol or a shotgun than with an auto myself. I first realized that in basic training and have verified/watched it verified in numerous hands over the years - This includes firing fully loaded 20 round mags myself in a Thompson .45 at a human sillouhette target - 3 magazines, 1 bullet in the paper outside the sillouhette 0 in the sillhouette - the others all missed. At 10 to 15 feet. The owner did only slightly better. BUT if either of us had been firing at a forest of people moving at us, we would have taken a goodly toll.

I mostly agree with you about a person with zero to little practice in full auto, but I must object to your use of the Thompson vs. say, an M-16 A2. Even someone with very little practice should have more control over the latter in full auto than the former.
 
quit projecting your values on us, in fact mind your own business.....It's rude

I understood that your constitution guarantees freedom of expression in addition to a right to bear arms. Is there a reason why you seem to value the latter over the former within the context of the current discussion?
 
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quit projecting your values on us, in fact mind your own business.....It's rude

You mean "stop challenging my views" don't you?

This is an internet forum, and your business is mine, and vice versa. It's rude to tell people to mind their own business on a forum.
 
It's funny how whenever this topic comes up, the people that you'd think would be die-hard critical thinkers seem to lose that "critical" part.
 
There are some places in the world where gun control can be more effective and some where it will be less effective.

After Dunblane, Britain went for an outright ban on handguns (apart from a handful of loose powder muzzle loaders and carbine conversions) and a ban on all semi autos larger than .22 calibre. Britain also has draconian rules on who may own a gun, under what circumstances and also regulates the sale of ammunition so that gun owners may only buy as much as the police consider they have a legitimate use for.

These bans were fairly effective in removing privately owned guns because there was public buy in to the idea, good cooperation from gun owners (who as a group were some of the most law abiding people in the country), because there were relatively few guns of the type being banned in the first place, (less than a third of legally owned firearms in Britain), because there were even fewer in criminal hands and because Britain is a small island nation with pretty good border security.

None of this stopped a taxi driver from murdering 12 people with a bolt action .22 rifle and a double barreled shotgun in 2010. These types of weapon are generally intended for pest control and there has never been any serious call to ban them. They are a necessary farming tool.

The USA is a huge country saturated with guns. It has a porous land border with a third world state that has a huge problem with violent militarised criminal cartels. (Yes, you Canada!) It was founded by revolution against monarchial government. It romanticises it's pioneer tradition when settlers expanded civilisation into the wilderness armed against large predators. It reveres the cowboy myth and the concept of individual liberty. The right to own guns is entrenched in law and a large proportion of the population strongly supports this.

Guns are in criminal hands in the USA to an extent almost unimaginable to people in other Western countries. Muggings and robberies using guns are routine. As has been pointed out, the death toll among young men in the urban drug trade is astounding. Many law abiding people in high crime areas feel the need to own firearms for self defence.

As a purely practical matter, how could you institute a British style ban on handguns and semi autos in the USA? Imagine you somehow manage to pass the necessary laws. How could they be enforced? How could you prevent people having access to illegal guns?

I simply don't think it's possible, in the same way that generations of prohibition have not reduced the availablity of illegal narcotics. In any event it would not stop gun massacres being carried out with the remaining legally owned bolt action, pump action, lever action and single shot guns.

Having said that, lone nut gun rampages tend to carried out with legally owned weapons and I believe it's worth an effort to try to restrict crazy people's access to them. There is a lot of middle ground between gun bans and unrestricted access. For example, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to me to ensure that a firearm owner can use it safely. A firearms license that required a safety course, background check and police interviews with family, friends and coworkers would help reduce impulse gun crime.

Nothing however will completely prevent gun massacres in any country. Germany has banned paintball and laser tag on the grounds that they "train people to kill" ( while studiously ignoring much more realistic and violent -and lucrative - video games). Sooner or later there will be another gun massacre in Germany. And in Britain. And in Norway. The best we can do is make it harder for unstable people to access weapons, but at some point you just can't tighten gun laws any further.

The question is what level of gun control is both politically feasible and practically effective for each individual country in order reduce the number of crazy people having access to guns. The USA has fewer options in this regard than Britain.
 
It's funny how whenever this topic comes up, the people that you'd think would be die-hard critical thinkers seem to lose that "critical" part.

Welcome to the Politics section, where critical thinking goes to die.

ETA: @Carnivore:

I agree on your sentiments. Banning guns in the USA would be like banning abortion. Outright impossible to enforce.

Yeah, and Germany is well Germany. I mean, they go 4Kids (look up their dub of One Piece) on anything if it's "politically incorrect".
 
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