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What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

Since when are myths and stories we tell ourselves to feel better in the dark "science"? You want to feel better about the chaos of the world by imposing order on it (eg, god), go right ahead. But don't try to call it science.

Also, Hawking radiation may have been observed 2 years ago:
http://phys.org/news204866995.html
That's only less than 40 years after Hawking proposed it. Christianity is going on 2,000 years without any evidence for their god.

Yes, I believe I said they were getting closer, probably to both, imo.

How many years did it take before we understood the world revolved around the sun. How long it took means it is somehow less true? Perhaps it is just a greater mystery.
 
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Sure, some people, even wise and scientifically savvy people, believe in God because they feel it best explains the parts of the universe they cannot otherwise explain, or provides them with a meaning without which they feel lost.


OK


But real faith is not fledgling science. Faith is the belief not only in things you cannot see, but things that you reasonably expect cannot ever be seen.


I expect we will eventually prove God exists.


You make it sound as if faith is just science that's incomplete, or worse, incompetent, or that faith is just a provisional category for questions the scientist will address later.

That was not my intention. I don't think science has even scratched the surface of answering all the questions. Does that sound better?


That may appeal to some lovers of science who are convinced that eventially all questions of gods will become obsolete, but it's a poor choice for those who truly believe in a god.

It's my choice and my belief. YMMV.
 
You can't add infinitum. It won't fit. Ha ha, But seriously, are you suggesting that all infinities are the same, that there's only one?

I don't want to stray from the OP, so will be brief.

It is a peculiarity of the concept of infinity that when applied to quantities of a thing, it always refers to the same quantity. So an infinite number of bananas is the same number of bananas as half an infinite number of bananas, or twice an infinite number of bananas.
 
Mark is simply trying to get a conversation going on the conflict between free will and omniscience. Some see this as a big issue. I don't.

I agree, its philosophical waffle. Omniscience is an easy target, it can't be defended using rational thought and falls into the trap of regression.

Any omniscient beings out there are likely to be indescribable in numerous respects.
 
Mark is simply trying to get a conversation going on the conflict between free will and omniscience. Some see this as a big issue. I don't.

I agree, its philosophical waffle. Omniscience is an easy target, it can't be defended using rational thought and falls into the trap of regression.

Any omniscient beings out there are likely to be indescribable in numerous respects.

Well certainly. Belief necessitates a certain abandonment of logic and favors ambiguity over the concrete. The problems arise when asking others to join in in your joyous personal befuddlement.
 
Deleted. Believers thread. No need for my commentary.
 
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Wow, just wow.

Really, how can we speak for God. Personally I think there are two God's, Russell and Hugh let's call them. I can't wait for 25 December.

Unless someone speaks for god how will you know what she wants you to do?
 
OK





I expect we will eventually prove God exists.




That was not my intention. I don't think science has even scratched the surface of answering all the questions. Does that sound better?




It's my choice and my belief. YMMV.
Fair enough as far as it goes, but you sort of omitted the hard part of my question. Sure, there are things, I believe, that science may never answer. Some may indeed be within the realm of science, and just too hard to understand yet. Others, however, will never be answered by science because they are inherently unanswerable, because their subject may not even exist, and the very idea of answers may be a mistake. Questions, such as "does the universe have a purpose?" These are questions that can only be addressed by theology, and which require some degree of faith even to ask. They are unanswered by science because they have no place there, and because nothing we know is actually affected by the answer. If science could ever prove that God exists, then theology would have been a mistake all along even if someone was lucky enough to guess right.

Now I have no faith myself, and am content to consider that nothing that is real is inherently unknowable, and that the universe, and humanity itself, are utterly without purpose except for what we make. I long ago got used to the idea that there are no absolutes, but that relative values are values nonetheless. The universe is billions of years old, and has a long way to go yet. It does not worry me if, somewhere in the mists of the future, or tomorrow if we're wrong, the whole thing goes "poof" without a trace and without a god to remember it. In the meantime, we have something to do. We're lucky that we have a long life and a big brain, and not those of a mayfly, but it's still up to us to make it worthwhile.

But I can understand the idea of faith, and understand well enough why some people go there. Perhaps I would even seek that comfort if I could, but it's no use - I can't believe what I can't believe, no matter how nice it would be. Reincarnation would be nice too, but so what?

Now it sounds as if you are one of the many who find it possible and perhaps necessary to reconcile faith and science, and that's fine. But I still say that if faith answers questions that science does not, then it is only because science cannot ever. "Cutting to the chase" is not faith in good faith, it's only bad science. If you're going to believe in non overlapping magisteria, make sure not to overlap them.
 
Well certainly. Belief necessitates a certain abandonment of logic and favors ambiguity over the concrete. The problems arise when asking others to join in in your joyous personal befuddlement.

I don't believe, I have reached my position through experience.
 
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Yes I appreciate your position. However I have an interest in the true state of affairs in existence. This necessarily requires an inquiry into what exists outside of human thought, mythology, concepts and understanding, (which your position addresses).

I don't believe, I have reached my position through experience.

You have experienced what exists outside of human thought, mythology, concepts and understanding?
 

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