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What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

dafydd said:
Why should anything exist beyond the known universe? The universe may be bigger than we suspect but that does not mean that you can think spirits, elves, fairies and creator gods into existence.
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Why do you think nothing exists beyond the known universe? Where is your proof?
 
tsig said:
If you believe that quote then why are you looking for meaning outside yourself?
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Faith in God is my personal choice and part of life's meaning for me. Those without faith in God can find meaning in life through other things, some of those things may be common to me as well.
 
tsig said:
If we're living in the Hotel Portmeirion then it's because that's where god put us so we shouldn't try to look beyond.
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I think god put us in her universe, we should not be confined as a prisoner in the Hotel Portmeirion. This is why I am interested in things like Curiosity and space exploration, and well, science.
 
RoseMontague said:
Science tells us that certain things exist even before they are observed. It's like the double helix of DNA, scientists even knew what it looked like but only recently got a picture of it. Hawking radiation has not been observed, yet some scientists believe it is there because the universe does not seem to compute without it. Some scientists also believe God exists because it is the only way they see the universe as being possible.

Faith however, has been described as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The evidence of things not seen is the common ground with science , imo. To me, the things hoped for part is our desire to give some meaning to life, the universe, and everything.
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Sorry, but I must disagree with this. Where is there a formula that doesn't work unless you put in "life has meaning?" Can you show me an equation that only works if you put in god? Sure, some people, even wise and scientifically savvy people, believe in God because they feel it best explains the parts of the universe they cannot otherwise explain, or provides them with a meaning without which they feel lost. But real faith is not fledgling science. Faith is the belief not only in things you cannot see, but things that you reasonably expect cannot ever be seen. You make it sound as if faith is just science that's incomplete, or worse, incompetent, or that faith is just a provisional category for questions the scientist will address later. That may appeal to some lovers of science who are convinced that eventially all questions of gods will become obsolete, but it's a poor choice for those who truly believe in a god.
 
dafydd said:
We have already been through your misunderstanding of infinity.
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You were one of the ones for whom it was evident that you did not understand that infinity divided by two is equal to infinity multiplied by two and to infinity to the power of infinity to the power of infinity... add infinitum.
 
tsig said:
Do you have any different eyes? If not then you're subject to the same limitations that the rest of us are so how come you're perceiving all these spirits?
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Your mistaken, where did you come up with the idea that I perceive spirits?
 
kerikiwi said:
Since there is no evidence that there is any such thing as 'spirit' nothing will help people explain spirit.
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It is a subject, there is evidence of the subject of spirit. There is no physical evidence of spirit, only of physical things.
 
punshhh said:
You were one of the ones for whom it was evident that you did not understand that infinity divided by two is equal to infinity multiplied by two and to infinity to the power of infinity to the power of infinity... add infinitum.
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You can't add infinitum. It won't fit. Ha ha, But seriously, are you suggesting that all infinities are the same, that there's only one?
 
RoseMontague said:
Science tells us that certain things exist even before they are observed.
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Since when are myths and stories we tell ourselves to feel better in the dark "science"? You want to feel better about the chaos of the world by imposing order on it (eg, god), go right ahead. But don't try to call it science.

Also, Hawking radiation may have been observed 2 years ago:
http://phys.org/news204866995.html
That's only less than 40 years after Hawking proposed it. Christianity is going on 2,000 years without any evidence for their god.
 
punshhh said:
It is a subject, there is evidence of the subject of spirit. There is no physical evidence of spirit, only of physical things.
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Well because only physical things actually exist and all that.

"It is a subject" is supposed to mean what exactly?

You keep coming back to this inane idea that this have to exist in some way on some level just because you can conjure them in your brain. That's absurd on multiple levels.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
That's not what he said, try again.

He said it wasn't a given, not that 'nothing' definitely existed or didn't exist.
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I know, I was replying in a similar fashion. Dafydd was twisting what I said into a statement that spirits etc exist because other realms of existence may exist beyond our universe, which is not what I said. He does this repeatedly and very rarely addresses what I actually say.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Sure it does. It explains why the human brain makes things like 'spirits' up. That explains them/it perfectly well, IMO.
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Yes I appreciate your position. However I have an interest in the true state of affairs in existence. This necessarily requires an inquiry into what exists outside of human thought, mythology, concepts and understanding, (which your position addresses).
 
punshhh said:
Yes I appreciate your position. However I have an interest in the true state of affairs in existence. This necessarily requires an inquiry into what exists outside of human thought, mythology, concepts and understanding, (which your position addresses).
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Poppycock. But whatever floats your boat.
 
punshhh said:
Yes I appreciate your position. However I have an interest in the true state of affairs in existence. This necessarily requires an inquiry into what exists outside of human thought, mythology, concepts and understanding, (which your position addresses).
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How are you going to think about that which is outside human thought being human and all?
 
tsig said:
How are you going to think about that which is outside human thought being human and all?
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Well spotted, I can rely on you for not missing a nugget like that.

Such an enquiry uses other aspects of experience than thought. Although thought is involved in the interpretation and recognition of the results.
 
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