What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

[dafydd]

God's language, he spoke the true name encompassing the true nature of the universe and said BE, and the universe became.

He said ''Be'' in English? Which language did Adam and Eve speak? I suppose you believe that they actually existed?

 

[RoseMontague]

Fair enough, we are not discussing reality.

I think we are discussing What actually do JREF religious believers believe?.

Several of the JREF believers have addressed the OP here.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Rose, how do you deal with the fact that scientists can alter someone's moral compass, to the point where they outright change their mind on whether things are moral or not, using magnets?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

As the longest night of the year fast approaches I celebrate the Yule by lighting and speaking a brief prayer both when I wake up in the morning and before I go to sleep. This ritual has both ties to Hannukkah and the Advent, chasing away the dark of the approaching Winter Solstice both with light and aspects of life such as the holly, mistletoe and Christmas tree. And I will celebrate Christmas with my family, mostly Christians, with lots of food, hopefully not turkey this year, probably some Southern dishes, or maybe a big thick juicy steak.

It's a great time to be thankful for what we have, regardless of your religion (or lack of).

What does that have to do with the Israelites managing to massacre another ethnic group (plus their own non believers) thanks in part to some magic oil?

I mean that's what Hannukah is. It's a celebration of sucessful ethnic cleansing.

 

[RoseMontague]

He said ''Be'' in English? Which language did Adam and Eve speak? I suppose you believe that they actually existed?

Everybody keeps wanting to tie me into the bible and Christian beliefs. My views would be (and I am repeating myself) considered a form of neo-paganism or Wicca. Some people keep the religion they were brought up with, some don't and some may have not been brought up in a family that believes in God at all. Some seek out other religions that more closely resemble what their personal beliefs are. Some enjoy worship for the ritual or social aspects. I don't claim to have all the answers or even any. What I have tried to do is answer the question of what I believe and I have tried to encourage the debate about some of the basic concepts of God in terms of a creator and a soul.

 

[Minarvia]

I want to explore this a little further.

In early Novemeber of 2008 I was in New York and ate lunch at a Macdonalds in lower Manhatten.

What sort of corroborating evidence would you be willing to accept as proof that this actually occured?

I had to miss a full day, so sorry for being late.

I would say that not all anecdotes about events are necessarily to be dismissed out of hand, but that at least a number of them could be shown to be true, or at least that there is something to them. But of all the millions or billions of god/s anecdotes, none seem to have anything verifiable at all.

 

[RoseMontague]

Rose, how do you deal with the fact that scientists can alter someone's moral compass, to the point where they outright change their mind on whether things are moral or not, using magnets?

I mentioned a physicist earlier in the thread that argues for a scientific morality. My personal belief is that it is in our nature to survive as a species and morality is tied to that.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I don't think you understood the question.

You can take a person who believes that the death penalty is fine and dandy for some crimes, and with the use of magnets have him suddenly no longer believe it's acceptable, then change him back again.

 

[RoseMontague]

What does that have to do with the Israelites managing to massacre another ethnic group (plus their own non believers) thanks in part to some magic oil?

I mean that's what Hannukah is. It's a celebration of sucessful ethnic cleansing.

I was referring to the ritual of the menorah, specifically the lighting of candles. The ties to my ritual are the spiritual layers represented in the candles and the celebration of light overcoming and enduring the darkness.

 

[RoseMontague]

I don't think you understood the question.

You can take a person who believes that the death penalty is fine and dandy for some crimes, and with the use of magnets have him suddenly no longer believe it's acceptable, then change him back again.

I could do the same thing with two twenty dollar bills. I am not sure what you are getting at.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

It's not a bribe, it's literally changing how people think, not just convincing them this time.

Think about that for a moment. Someone has the deeply held belief that execution is wrong. You might be able to bribe them, but still their brain pattern shows they think it is wrong.

Use a few magnets and the brain reacts differently. They don't just change what they say, they literally change how they think.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I was referring to the ritual of the menorah, specifically the lighting of candles. The ties to my ritual are the spiritual layers represented in the candles and the celebration of light overcoming and enduring the darkness.

The ritual of the menorah has nothing to do with overcoming darkness in anything but the most basic sense. Do you know the story of Hannukah? Do you know it isn't even in the top 5 most important Jewish holidays?

 

[RoseMontague]

It's not a bribe, it's literally changing how people think, not just convincing them this time.

Think about that for a moment. Someone has the deeply held belief that execution is wrong. You might be able to bribe them, but still their brain pattern shows they think it is wrong.

Use a few magnets and the brain reacts differently. They don't just change what they say, they literally change how they think.

I'll pass this on to a few of my lawyer friends. A few of these things under the right chairs. I am interested in a link to this experiment however.

 

[RoseMontague]

The ritual of the menorah has nothing to do with overcoming darkness in anything but the most basic sense. Do you know the story of Hannukah? Do you know it isn't even in the top 5 most important Jewish holidays?

The basic sense is what I was referring to. I am not Jewish.

 

[punshhh]

What need is there for science to comment on "spirit?"

None, there is nothing to say either way.

What concrete observations can be made about such a thing by anyone?

It depends on what one is observing, science may be looking in the wrong place.

Notice I specified concrete. Ambiguities, well, there's a ton of those; but notice something: even the loftiest of the romantic poets, say a Shelley, even those avoid this pitfall and leave the unknown, like a shrouded Mount Blanc, to the unknown. When the clouds dissipate, the sun shines.

These poets do allude to subjective freedoms, a subjective interpretation of the experience of life is dull and mundane when reduced to biology. Like one's feet are set in concrete.

 

[Minarvia]

Well, it is my very subjective impression that most people don't actually put much thought into exactly what they believe and don't have all that much of an idea exactly what they believe in. They believe it's true, but they don't know what it is. Which is weird IMHO.

E.g., what is a soul? Is it basically life? Well, a lot of people even among the theists can easily imagine something living without a soul (e.g., undead or animals; even people who somehow lost theirs or stored it somwhere else or whatever are common literary characters.) E.g., is it consciousness? Well, ditto.

I even talked to someone who really didn't argue more than that there is some unspecified "energy" that you have when alive, and it must go somewhere when you die, because the 2nd law of thermodynamics says so. But at that point that energy doesn't have to be conscious or anything -- and in fact energy never is -- and his afterlife doesn't have to be more than an energy sink. Heck, even heating the universe a little would qualify.

And that goes double when people (not Rose so far, but we are talking more general theist beliefs) make nonsense statements like "God is love" or "Jesus is the Truth" or C.S.Lewis's "God is goodness" or such. I haven't found anyone who can explain or seems to have the foggiest idea of how a being can be a state or property.

Or take John's having the Logos incarnate as a human and die on the cross. Given that Logos was the reason that keeps the universe working, or akin to what we call physics these days, how would that even work? And wouldn't the universe stop working while the Logos was dead?

The RCC had two millennia to think this kind of stuff up, and even they routinely retreat behind 'it's a mystery' when asked to explain it.

Fascinating points! Firstly, I really never thought of the idea that if we, as humans, have an energy, that it could simply heat the Universe up a little if we die. The "Afterlife" can simply, as you say, be an energy sink. That actually makes much more sense (thinking logically rather than theologically) than the comforting ideas of meeting all your loved ones and pets and all after you die. That would be nice, but from what we know, quite unlikely.

The RCC and also Protestants, I lump them together because all fall under some sort of Christianity, have their "mysteries," don't they? The Pentacostal church I attended with a friend some years back for almost a year kept saying the old "God works in mysterious ways," and "We aren't meant to understand," and all that sort of stuff. Who and what is to say we "aren't meant" to do or understand anything? I rant a little, but it irks me when something like stem cell research or cloning comes up and at once the religious say we "aren't meant" to do such things. How would they know and who are they to say?

I also never thought of Logos being dead and the Universe stopping. I suppose the simple response would be that Jesus, if he is Logos in this example, is only one part of "god" and therefore nothing would have to stop. He's just the part sent to save us from the other parts of said god's wrath.

And...you are right. The believers I know have directly told me they believe..."because." Or, "I was taught that." Or, "Doesn't that make more sense than just a huge cosmic accident?"

To me, no, it doesn't make more sense. It COULD be true, but it doesn't make more sense.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I'll pass this on to a few of my lawyer friends. A few of these things under the right chairs. I am interested in a link to this experiment however.

Yeah I'd say that's ethically dubious and highly illegal. Nice of you to say that though, real classy.

http://www.technologyreview.com/article/419443/changing-minds/

The basic sense is what I was referring to. I am not Jewish.

You aren't Christian either as far as I can tell, but you still hold some of their ideas highly and speak as if you understand the stories.

 

[Resume]

These poets do allude to subjective freedoms, a subjective interpretation of the experience of life is dull and mundane when reduced to biology. Like one's feet are set in concrete.

Oh dear, just no. Do you imagine (as just one example)Ted Hughes' natural poetry was uninfluenced by biology, his observations of the natural world, his study of anthropology?

Or Shelley.

"But a flood of ruin
Is there, that from the boundaries of the sky
Rolls its perpetual stream; vast pines are strewing
Its destined path, or in the mangled soil
Branchless and shattered stand: the rocks, drawn down
From yon remotest waste, have overthrown
The limits of the dead and living world,
Never to be reclaimed."

Dull?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I have to wonder why people like punshhh think that science is boring. The only thing I can think of is that it's like a child who attacks something that they don't understand.

"I can't grasp this discussion so I'll throw my toys out of the pram and say it's boring!"

Then they have the temerity to claim that adding magic and miracles, something that really IS boring as hell because it has no complexity makes it interesting. Which of these ideas is more interesting? Disease is caused by magic spells and bad air, or that disease is caused by a variety of living and semi living organisms that have patterns of behaviour we can study and investigate?

 

[RoseMontague]

Yeah I'd say that's ethically dubious and highly illegal. Nice of you to say that though, real classy.

http://www.technologyreview.com/article/419443/changing-minds/

Thanks for the link. I matters not to me if you understand my humor, but it does matter to me that you think I have no class. It makes me a bit sad.

You aren't Christian either as far as I can tell, but you still hold some of their ideas highly and speak as if you understand the stories.

Some, yes.