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What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

RoseMontague said:
These names are tied to different human beliefs and ideas of spirituality and worship. I don't know the true name of God, just that she exists.
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You don't know, you believe. It's not the same thing. Which creation myth is true, or do you not believe in a creation myth?
 
Mashuna said:
This would be something of a reversal, as scientific progress so far has reduced the gaps in which God(s) used to hide.
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That is the perception and clerics tend to circle the wagons without thinking things through. I believe that the more knowledge we get the closer we get to the reality of God. I am really excited about the discoveries mankind is making.

If your faith is strong, the position should be that knowledge will reveal God and not disprove God.
 
RoseMontague said:
That is the perception and clerics tend to circle the wagons without thinking things through. I believe that the more knowledge we get the closer we get to the reality of God. I am really excited about the discoveries mankind is making.

If your faith is strong, the position should be that knowledge will reveal God and not disprove God.
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You will be sadly disappointed, knowledge can never reveal the existence of imaginary beings.
 
RoseMontague said:
Thank you for your gift in your participation here. I stand by my statement that time is a tricky subject. There are many various views about time among physicists. I linked to one, here is some of what Hawking has to say. Is he shooting an imaginary arrow at an imaginary deity? One way to fight fire with fire, I suppose.


http://sqentropy.dyndns.org/ebook/Stephen Hawking - A brief history of time/h.html

Or maybe he is fighting fire with Hawking Radiation? Got to have faith in something.
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Thanks I will read that later. I agree that spirit can be seen as operating free of our space time matrix.

You know all this scientific thinking and teaching is all very well when it comes to understanding the physical world. But when it comes to spirit or subjective freedom it is more of a hindrance. For example you and I see the possibility of a spirit alongside matter very simply and naturally*. Whereas for a materialist to consider it, they have to account for where it fits into the complex and precise scientific narrative and it is a great struggle. Also the scientific method alienates a consideration of concepts which can't be rooted in QM or GR.

A question for the materialists;
Simply our known spacetime universe is an artefact. Why is there not other artefacts in the cosmos? and why is it imperative that these other existences follow the physical laws we have evolved to deal with?

*I like to visualise spirit as behind a surface like the surface of water. Imagine a water surface vertical like a wall in your room. You can blow and the surface ripples. You can imagine a realm or an artefact the other side of the surface just a few centimeters from your face which has come from an infinite potential of forms, infinitely far away in time in space, or vastly different from what is on your side of the surface. Push your face against the surface and see the other realm. Perhaps we live in the interface between these two realms.
 
RoseMontague said:
That is the perception and clerics tend to circle the wagons without thinking things through. I believe that the more knowledge we get the closer we get to the reality of God. I am really excited about the discoveries mankind is making.

If your faith is strong, the position should be that knowledge will reveal God and not disprove God.
Click to expand...

So as the gaps become ever tighter, the space for god to hide smaller, the likelihood of its reality becomes . . . larger?
 
dafydd said:
You don't know, you believe. It's not the same thing. Which creation myth is true, or do you not believe in a creation myth?
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I don't pick and chose from a list, sorry. I have said I believe in this basic concept of creation; God spoke.
 
Resume said:
So as the gaps become ever tighter, the space for god to hide smaller, the likelihood of its reality becomes . . . larger?
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I have not made myself clear. Errors in our thoughts about God as written in things like the bible may be exposed, at the same time revealing the reality of God and not just mankind's somewhat feeble and self-serving attempts to explain God. Religious leaders need more background in science or they are going to be truly Left Behind.
 
Resume said:
Should've stopped here.
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Your dry wit, like a Margarita with plenty of salt on the rim.


Really what does science say about spirit? other than that is is not required in the explanations of physics or biology.
 
RoseMontague said:
That is the perception and clerics tend to circle the wagons without thinking things through. I believe that the more knowledge we get the closer we get to the reality of God. I am really excited about the discoveries mankind is making.

If your faith is strong, the position should be that knowledge will reveal God and not disprove God.
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That may well be what your faith position is. Other people have different faith positions. There's no way to distinguish between them really, that's just the nature of faith.

My evidence based position is that knowledge has systematically disproved individual notions of God through history, so all that's left is "well, we don't know for sure, therefore God". What attributes this God has is again, a matter of faith. At which point, I stick with my ignosticism and say that it's a meaningless position to hold.
 
punshhh said:
Your dry wit, like a Margarita with plenty of salt on the rim.


Really what does science say about spirit? other than that is is not required in the explanations of physics or biology.
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What need is there for science to comment on "spirit?" What concrete observations can be made about such a thing by anyone?

Notice I specified concrete. Ambiguities, well, there's a ton of those; but notice something: even the loftiest of the romantic poets, say a Shelley, even those avoid this pitfall and leave the unknown, like a shrouded Mount Blanc, to the unknown. When the clouds dissipate, the sun shines.
 
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punshhh said:
Really what does science say about spirit? other than that is is not required in the explanations of physics or biology.
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It's a bit like homoeopathy really. There's no discernible effect, there's no physical mechanism by which it could work, but some people are convinced that it can cure them of pretty much anything.
 
The Hindu creation myth says that before this time began, there was no heaven, no earth and no space between. A vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of the night.
Hindu Creation Myt

A giant Cobra floated on the waters. Asleep within its endless coils lay the Lord Vishnu. He was watched over by the mighty serpent. Everything was so silent and peaceful that Vishnu slept undisturbed by dreams motion. From the depths a humming sound began to tremble, Ohm. It grew and spread, filling the emptiness and throbbing with energy.

The night had ended, Vishnu awoke. As the dawn began to break, from Vishnu's navel grew a magnificent lotus flower. In the middle of the blossom sat Vishnu's servant, Brahma. he awaited the Lord's command.

Vishnu spoke to his servant: "It's time to begin", Brahma vowed. Vishnu commanded: "Create the world". A wind swept the waters. Vishnu and the serpent vanished.

Brahma remained in the lotus flower, floating and tossing on the sea. He lifted up his arms and calmed the wind and the ocean. Then Brahma split the lotus flower into three. He stretched one part into the heavens. He made another part into the earth. with the third part of the flower he created the skies.

The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created animals and the insects to live in the land. He made birds and many fish. To all these creatures he gave the sense of touch and smell. He gave them the power to see, hear and move. The world was soon bristling with life and the air was filled with the sound of Brahma's creation.

This is at odds with the Christian god speaking a word. Why is the Christian myth correct and the Hindu myth erroneous, Rose?
 
dafydd said:
The Hindu creation myth says that before this time began, there was no heaven, no earth and no space between. A vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of the night.
Hindu Creation Myt

A giant Cobra floated on the waters. Asleep within its endless coils lay the Lord Vishnu. He was watched over by the mighty serpent. Everything was so silent and peaceful that Vishnu slept undisturbed by dreams motion. From the depths a humming sound began to tremble, Ohm. It grew and spread, filling the emptiness and throbbing with energy.

The night had ended, Vishnu awoke. As the dawn began to break, from Vishnu's navel grew a magnificent lotus flower. In the middle of the blossom sat Vishnu's servant, Brahma. he awaited the Lord's command.

Vishnu spoke to his servant: "It's time to begin", Brahma vowed. Vishnu commanded: "Create the world". A wind swept the waters. Vishnu and the serpent vanished.

Brahma remained in the lotus flower, floating and tossing on the sea. He lifted up his arms and calmed the wind and the ocean. Then Brahma split the lotus flower into three. He stretched one part into the heavens. He made another part into the earth. with the third part of the flower he created the skies.

The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created animals and the insects to live in the land. He made birds and many fish. To all these creatures he gave the sense of touch and smell. He gave them the power to see, hear and move. The world was soon bristling with life and the air was filled with the sound of Brahma's creation.

This is at odds with the Christian god speaking a word. Why is the Christian myth correct and the Hindu myth erroneous, Rose?
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I never said the Christian view of creation was correct. I simply believe God spoke. It makes no difference to me which religion says that, or which may be right or wrong about the nature of creation and reality. I am not discussing different religions, just my personal beliefs.
 
RoseMontague said:
I never said the Christian view of creation was correct. I simply believe God spoke. It makes no difference to me which religion says that, or which may be right or wrong about the nature of creation and reality. I am not discussing different religions, just my personal beliefs.
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Fair enough, we are not discussing reality.
 
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