What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

[Skeptic Ginger]

... or the Ceiling Cat.

There's a Ceiling Cat?!

...All I'm saying is that 'god did it' isn't some general answer that fits everything, as it just introduces more gaps than there were without a god there at all.

Exactly.

 

[RoseMontague]

Why does the million dollar challenge go unclaimed?

I need a hero.

"Great wonder grew in hall
At his hue most strange to see,
For man and gear and all
Were green as green could be."

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

"An honest man, armed with all knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."

My personal opinion and the opinion of many scientists is that it takes faith to believe life is possible without a deity. I think non-believing scientists display a better example of faith than does the believer.

Yes, there are indoctrinated scientists. That doesn't make your "almost a miracle" claim even close to being true. People studying the abiogenesis phase of evolution theory would clearly beg to differ.

"The precision is as if one could throw a dart across the entire universe and hit a bullseye one millimeter in diameter on the other side."

This apology has been addressed ad nauseum elsewhere. I'll leave it at that.

There is no proof of a creation involving no God, so yes, science is relying on faith when they deny the possibility of God.

There's no proof it wasn't a lot of things, mice and green cheese and Ceiling Cats come to mind.

"I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."

I find it difficult to understand the cognitive dissonance it must take for someone who understands the scientific process to exclude god beliefs from critical analysis.

 

[bruto]

Rose, every unlikely event, of which there are many all the time, can be looked at in retrospect and seen as miraculous. The origin of life is very unlikely indeed, but here we are: it only had to happen once in the long history of a mind bogglingly huge universe for us to sit here hoping we're something special that a special God did instead of settling for the comfortless statistics that we see working all the time.

You can go ahead and presume a god if it makes you happy and keeps you from feeling alone in the universe, but for others it's no more necessary for life than it is for explaining why some lucky dude won Powerball last week.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Let not your heart be troubled SG. You don't have to read it again. I thought the same thing with A Clockwork Orange. There may be something in there of value but I don't see it. Some people think it is classic literature. I think it is trash but maybe it is just me.

Reading it again isn't the issue. Millions of people worshipping such a woman demeaning/devaluing god myth is what troubles me.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Catching up on a few pages here. I love your posts as always, Skeptic Ginger. ...

Thank you. It's nice to know I don't only piss people off.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes, there are indoctrinated scientists. That doesn't make your "almost a miracle" claim even close to being true. People studying the abiogenesis phase of evolution theory would clearly beg to differ.

It's a conspiracy.

This apology has been addressed ad nauseum elsewhere. I'll leave it at that.

"Link
quote
context
argument"

There's no proof it wasn't a lot of things, mice and green cheese and Ceiling Cats come to mind.

I like green eggs and ham.

I find it difficult to understand the cognitive dissonance it must take for someone who understands the scientific process to exclude god beliefs from critical analysis.

Ditto.

 

[RoseMontague]

Rose, every unlikely event, of which there are many all the time, can be looked at in retrospect and seen as miraculous. The origin of life is very unlikely indeed, but here we are: it only had to happen once in the long history of a mind bogglingly huge universe for us to sit here hoping we're something special that a special God did instead of settling for the comfortless statistics that we see working all the time.

You can go ahead and presume a god if it makes you happy and keeps you from feeling alone in the universe, but for others it's no more necessary for life than it is for explaining why some lucky dude won Powerball last week.

Are you saying your view on this might change if life was shown to exist on other planets? Just curiosity.

 

[Minarvia]

Yowza!

My most gross out parts are the stories of blaming women for sin, God preferring animal sacrifice in the Cain and Able story, the story of Lot where he prefers throwing his daughters to a mob, his wife is destroyed by God for a minuscule and arbitrary failure and the daughters are then blamed for the father's incest, God "hardens Pharaoh's heart so he can order a slew of first borns killed, God encourages the slaughter of the Amalekites except wants his side to keep virgins for later rape, and on and on and on....

I don't recall any 'favorite' parts in the version I read.

Yes, indeed. I was troubled by all those things and like you say, "on and on and on." And I agree with you on probably everything you've said, SK. I wish I had even a tenth of your brains for these sorts of threads. I can only read and hope to learn a bit one day and actually add something of value.

I can say, however, that Rose is being a real champ, here. She's taking on a lot and doing her best to respond coherently and understand every question she's being tossed.

Rose, I studied a bit of Wicca in my time and also read the bible. I don't know if it is scripture per say, and I know you weren't necessarily referring to it when you say, "She." Wicca does indeed have the female creation aspect, iirc. However, I think the bible says something along the lines of -

"created them in His image; male and female." That is what makes it seem, at least imo, that the "His" is just a pronoun default. It really should be a "she-he-it" sort of thing.

 

[Minarvia]

Thank you. It's nice to know I don't only piss people off.

And here I was thinking it was your hobby!

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes, indeed. I was troubled by all those things and like you say, "on and on and on." And I agree with you on probably everything you've said, SK. I wish I had even a tenth of your brains for these sorts of threads. I can only read and hope to learn a bit one day and actually add something of value.

I can say, however, that Rose is being a real champ, here. She's taking on a lot and doing her best to respond coherently and understand every question she's being tossed.

Rose, I studied a bit of Wicca in my time and also read the bible. I don't know if it is scripture per say, and I know you weren't necessarily referring to it when you say, "She." Wicca does indeed have the female creation aspect, iirc. However, I think the bible says something along the lines of -

"created them in His image; male and female." That is what makes it seem, at least imo, that the "His" is just a pronoun default. It really should be a "she-he-it" sort of thing.

The Christian idea of the Trinity is but different aspects of one god as well.

I appreciate your comments.

 

[Minarvia]

Are you saying your view on this might change if life was shown to exist on other planets? Just curiosity.

I can't wait for the response, but for me I'd say my view that there are no creator god/s will not change. Life on other planets would just tell me that in this vast Universe a sprinkling of life here and there is not only welcome, but fascinating. It does not lead me to thinking that a god put them there, just that the planets were in their own "Goldilocks Zone."

 

[Minarvia]

The Christian idea of the Trinity is but different aspects of one god as well.

I appreciate your comments.

Ditto!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, indeed. I was troubled by all those things and like you say, "on and on and on." And I agree with you on probably everything you've said, SK. I wish I had even a tenth of your brains for these sorts of threads. I can only read and hope to learn a bit one day and actually add something of value.

Thank you.

I can say, however, that Rose is being a real champ, here. She's taking on a lot and doing her best to respond coherently and understand every question she's being tossed.

I agree. I like when these discussions remain so civil.

"created them in His image; male and female." That is what makes it seem, at least imo, that the "His" is just a pronoun default. It really should be a "she-he-it" sort of thing.

Actually, the Bible says God created Adam in God's image and made Eve to keep Adam company. There are two creation stories in Genesis:

The one you cited:

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Technically that only says man was in God's image.

Then there is the second creation story version most people cite:

2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

 

[PhantomWolf]

What I'd really like to know is WHY you believe.

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but as an answer...

Because I have seen, experienced, and met people to whom too many things have happened that simply can't be rationalised away.

For instance, I clearly heard my sister yelling at me to watch out for a car, something that prevented me being hit by it, except she was over 10km away visiting my Grandmother at the time. When I have brought it up before, the general consensus of the skeptic body’s wisdom is that it simply didn't happen, but since I was there and the skeptic body wasn't, I can say categorically, it did. And it's not the only thing I have personally experienced, though I'm not going to go into detail of other things here.

Talking with others I have heard a number of incredible stories which I have zero reason to doubt, often because there were other witnesses to the events as well, and they really had no reason to lie about it, in fact lying about it and then being caught out would have seriously harmed their standing.

Now none of these things are scientifically testable, it doesn't work on a demand and measure scale of things, in fact a lot of it can't be measured in any way. However, when it actually occurs to you and you're left sitting, or standing, there realising that what you just experienced is not possible based on the current scientific understanding of the laws of the Universe, then either you throw away some of the laws, of you accept that just maybe there is something beyond what we can perceive, something that exists outside of our own time and space, and yet can still interact with it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And here I was thinking it was your hobby!

I was born social-skills challenged. Been working on that for years.

 

[RoseMontague]

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but as an answer...

Because I have seen, experienced, and met people to whom too many things have happened that simply can't be rationalised away.

For instance, I clearly heard my sister yelling at me to watch out for a car, something that prevented me being hit by it, except she was over 10km away visiting my Grandmother at the time. When I have brought it up before, the general consensus of the skeptic body’s wisdom is that it simply didn't happen, but since I was there and the skeptic body wasn't, I can say categorically, it did. And it's not the only thing I have personally experienced, though I'm not going to go into detail of other things here.

Talking with others I have heard a number of incredible stories which I have zero reason to doubt, often because there were other witnesses to the events as well, and they really had no reason to lie about it, in fact lying about it and then being caught out would have seriously harmed their standing.

Now none of these things are scientifically testable, it doesn't work on a demand and measure scale of things, in fact a lot of it can't be measured in any way. However, when it actually occurs to you and you're left sitting, or standing, there realising that what you just experienced is not possible based on the current scientific understanding of the laws of the Universe, then either you throw away some of the laws, of you accept that just maybe there is something beyond what we can perceive, something that exists outside of our own time and space, and yet can still interact with it.

There are two answers given now. Anyone else?

 

[dafydd]

There are two answers given now. Anyone else?

Anecdotes, not real answers.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Why don't the aliens ever give documentary evidence to the abductees?

They never respect them in the morning.

What, and no cigarette after?

All (except me) hail the Bacon-hating Deity!

It appears that Jesus, as with a few other rules, was able to mitigate the bacon hating as a matter of spirit versus letter of the law.

Or, maybe, he didn't even consider it a question, didn't thus address it, and thus left it to his first generation team to figure it out.

Looks like the Holy Spirit is OK with bacon.
So far. Maybe that was an inner meaning of salt of the earth.

I didn't say this. I think it is highly arrogant to think the universe was created for us.

Of the religions that I have any familiarity with, it only appears that the Earth was created for us. Venus was apparently only created for incredibly hot babes, and they were so hawt that the whole planet overheated. Talk about woman caused global warming!

Anecdotes, not real answers.

They were answers.
That you don't care for them does not render them not an answer. Who are you to demand that there be raisins in those answers for you to consider them "real" answers. Do you want a kilt as well, amigo?

I note the usual dog pile, the usual interesting posts by Hans, and not much else.

Standard religion thread. Rose has been very gracious.

I miss cj23

 

[HansMustermann]

Ok, so there was some word, in the dictionary sense, that God spoke before finally getting to work on the big bang. I assume it's as good a start as any.

So, did this word play any particular role? Or was just God saying some irrelevant word, like, say, stubbing his toe in the dark before he created light and going, "<bleep>!"?

Does the universe respond to voice commands? Can we do it too?

For that matter, given that the universe didn't even exist yet, how does it take commands before existing?

What form or nature would this word have? Not only there isn't any medium in which sound would propagate yet, but there wasn't even space and time in which that would take place. So how did God speak there?

For that matter, since there was no time and space, where was God? He couldn't have been IN this universe before he created said universe. Is there a bigger universe where God is? Who created that one then? Is there a bigger god over all gods? Is it turtles... err... gods all the way down?

Etc.

You were saying before you wanted to see some mixed discipline of science and theology. But the science part wouldn't even be able to start doing anything, unless the hypotheses and premises are clearly defined.