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Honor killing in Pakistan

SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
Unfortunately the fact is that this is something that has been going on for 3000+ years, and these people feel culturally obliged to do this, and the facts don't really care about your intellect or your basic (Western) sense of decency; they'll carry on being facts regardless.

According to Wikipedia, women's groups in the Middle East estimate there are around 20,000 Honour Killings a year. However, the only ones that seem to hit the news are the really horrific ones - like the examples you cite. This doesn't lessen the nature of the crime, but it would suggest that not every single attack is a lurid, bloody torturous, lingering death carried out by some drooling, unfeeling sadist. Nobody here approves of Honour Killing, so you can leave the appeal to emotion at the door.
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All of which more than justifies using cultural imperialism to alter their constructs.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
That's the gist of what my comments replied to. Murder isn't necessarily wrong in the eyes of the murderer. A couple people in the thread seem to think no one can say their moral beliefs are valid while another's are not. Some of us say that's BS.
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Yeah, let's wrap this up with a strawman, too !
 
TimCallahan said:
As I've stated earlier, we can put pressure on the governments of such countries by foreign aid restrictions. That is to say, they don't get our money unless we have evidence that perpetrators of honor killings are dealt with harshly.
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And yet it won't change their culture one iota.
 
Craig4 said:
All of which more than justifies using cultural imperialism to alter their constructs.
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It doesn't justify anything of the sort. It's amazing how people forget the lessons of how well strongarm tactics and sanctions work on these people...

Al-Qaeda and bin Laden cited U.S. support of Israel, the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, and sanctions against Iraq as motives for the attacks.
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Try and guess what attacks are being referred to...
 
TimCallahan said:
And your evidence for this is . . . ?
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Maybe the fact that it's illegal, but it still happens? Maybe the fact that it's been going on for Thousands of years? Maybe because we are dealing with a subset of the population that is so wrapped up in their culture that they think killing a child is preferable to having a child who has a pre-marital sex life.

When have sanctions ever succeeded in changing a cultural practice? Did it work for slavery in the US? Did it work for Apartheidt in South Africa?
 
Brainache said:
Maybe the fact that it's illegal, but it still happens? Maybe the fact that it's been going on for Thousands of years? Maybe because we are dealing with a subset of the population that is so wrapped up in their culture that they think killing a child is preferable to having a child who has a pre-marital sex life.

When have sanctions ever succeeded in changing a cultural practice? Did it work for slavery in the US? Did it work for Apartheidt in South Africa?
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I can't say much about slavery in the U.S., which, of course was not an ancient practice and to which there was a lot of internal opposition. However, I suspect that world opinion did indeed influence South Africa.

Just because something's been going on for thousands of years doesn't mean we can't change it. Remember that the industrial revolution changed society radically in a very short time.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
It doesn't justify anything of the sort. It's amazing how people forget the lessons of how well strongarm tactics and sanctions work on these people...



Try and guess what attacks are being referred to...
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Why would one need to strong-arm? Do you think there are gangs of enforcers who go around the world forcing people to wear saggy jeans and have Justin Beiber haircuts?
 
Brainache said:
When have sanctions ever succeeded in changing a cultural practice? Did it work for slavery in the US? Did it work for Apartheidt in South Africa?
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My understanding is that it they were very influential. I'm pretty sure both examples were discussed upthread -- the British Navy singlehandedly enforcing the Atlantic Slave Trade Ban was given as an example of an older style that is less likely to be used now.

The trade and investment sanctions that was used against South Africa (because of Apartheid) by many countries, businesses and individuals was given as an example of that also worked, and as an approach more likely to be used in these times.

ETA: Ah, I missed TC's post -- still leaving mine up! :-)
 
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JeanFromBNA said:
If women in those countries in which honor killing commonly occurs had equal rights to redress and equal access to resources as men, then I think that your argument against cross-cultural interference would be valid. But when women are treated as de facto male property, they cannot willingly enter into this arrangement. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...by-text-if-their-wives-leave-the-country.html

Then this cultural difference becomes evil, and we are complicit unless we call out evil.
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Glad you brought up the idea of complicity. It does make a difference with whom we trade with and give aid to -- especially in countries like Afghanistan where less than half of the population is using violence and other non-democratic means of terrorizing and repressing the rest of the population. If, through our government foreign policies and other actions, we make help make the repressive forces in a society wealthier and more powerful, then we are also helping to enslave people and rob them of their freedoms.
 
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Craig4 said:
Why would one need to strong-arm? Do you think there are gangs of enforcers who go around the world forcing people to wear saggy jeans and have Justin Beiber haircuts?
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Well, call me narrow-minded, but I fail to see how you'd stop a culture from doing something they've been doing for 3000+ years - a culture that generally despises our western values and standards - by asking them nicely.

Best bet would be to support change from within.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
Best bet would be to support change from within.
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Absolutely. Private sector development, economic support etc...

I'm not sure anyone is advocating much different to this. The question, is are we willing as a society to spend say... 40 years and a squillion dollars to effect this change?

I daresay, we probably aren't. Nor should we.

That said - I don't think we can ethically just turn a blind eye and allow women to be 'honor killed', or any other of a myriad of unacceptable social behaviours that take place in Afg/Pak.

It is a balancing act.

And - isn't it 'cultural imperialism' to try the soft-sell approach by fostering economic improvement, just the same way that taking a strong-arm approach is equally 'cultural imperialism'? It is a kinder, gentler delivery mechanism, but its still imposing our beliefs elsewhere.
 
Antiquehunter said:
And - isn't it 'cultural imperialism' to try the soft-sell approach by fostering economic improvement, just the same way that taking a strong-arm approach is equally 'cultural imperialism'? It is a kinder, gentler delivery mechanism, but its still imposing our beliefs elsewhere.
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Definitely, which is why I am in favour of the 'assist where requested' method, not 'pushing' - gentle or otherwise. I don't need to tell you just how hard these people can push back when pushed.
 
Belz... said:
Yeah but you can't make it change for them. No matter what the plan is, it's them who will have to decide to change.
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You don't seem to be listening to the many posters who have pointed out that external sanctions did indeed have an impact on Apartheid.
 
TimCallahan said:
You don't seem to be listening to the many posters who have pointed out that external sanctions did indeed have an impact on Apartheid.
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Maybe, but then again the White South Africans weren't that culturally dissimilar to us, and there was an appetite for change, as has also been pointed out earlier. Plus, White South Africans aren't likely to hijack planes and fly them into iconic Western landmarks, killing thousands in retaliation...
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
Maybe, but then again the White South Africans weren't that culturally dissimilar to us, and there was an appetite for change, as has also been pointed out earlier. Plus, White South Africans aren't likely to hijack planes and fly them into iconic Western landmarks, killing thousands in retaliation...
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It seems to me we have two basic choices:

1) Ignore the suffering inflicted by such groups as the Taliban, Al Qaeda and those who perpetrate honor killings.

2) Do something about these groups.

We already agree that we cannot force societies to change be way of military force, although military force might be effective against military wings of organizations like Al Qaeda. That leaves such actions as education - particularly of women, raising their standard of living, making foreign aid conditional, sanctions and other pressures. I can see no reason to refrain from doing any of these.
 
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