Were The OTIS Fighters Diverted?

[FrankHT]

Well that's just outright false.

NEADS received word that AA11 might still be airborne and headed to Washington DC at 0921 EDT. Scramble orders were issued for QUIT-25 at 0924 EDT.

When I said SOF Borgstrum was ordered up before the false 9:21 report about phantom 11,I wasn't referring to the 9:24 scramble order. I was referring to the phone call Borgstrum received from NEADS "leadership" (likely Marr) telling him to suit up and join the others at Battle Stations.
That call had to have come before the false phantom 11 report at 9:21. How do we know? Easy the other pilots were already at Battle Stations (ordered at 9:09) and by 9:24 (scramble order) Borgstrum was already at Battle Stations with the others already suited up,setting in his F16 with Hot Guns that he HIMSELF ordered armed after the call! Loading those guns took at least 10-15 minutes. That means the call came before 9:21 at a time when both hijacks they knew about had already crashed & with no reason the think they'd need a third pilot! Borgstrum was put up to get the SOF out of the way.

 

[Reheat]

You are literally making up crap as you go to make it fit with your delusions... What's the evidence of a call from NEADS "leadership". Obviously none... That third aircraft was what is known as a spare (there is always at least one) that is fully fueled and gun loaded in case one of the primary alert aircraft develops a maintenance problem. So, your imaginary time line is debunked as is all of your garbage speculation and conjecture....

 

[Mark F]

Just let Frank live in his world of woo that makes him happy. He is a true believer and no amount of facts will ever sway him from his pointless and unnecessary conspiracy theory anyway.

 

[gumboot]

Yeah, I wondered about that. An airliner doesn't exactly have a lot of armor. Nevertheless, the shots would have to be fairly well placed, it's not like you can just shoot up an airliner and expect it to crash. Perhaps the pilots doubted if they could do so in a timely and efficient manner?

I think this is something of the issue. The standard load-out was 300 rounds, which gives you ~3 seconds of fire. The pilots were concerned about the practicality of taking out an airliner (they had discussed aiming for the wing root in the hope of weakening the main spar sufficiently to have a wing come off).

We think of them as more vulnerable, but that's actually not true - a fighter is far, far more vulnerable, if hit. Firstly, a fighter is much more compact, which means all of its critical infrastructure is very close together, increasing the probability of a critical hit. In contrast the vast majority of an airliner could happily be peppered with holes without major concern, and certainly without the airframe being compromised.

Secondly, an airliner has much greater flight stability and redundancy built in. Both the 757 and 767 can fly quite happily with one engine, and will even glide a bit if piloted well. They can lose chunks of control surfaces and airfoils and not immediately spin into the ground.

A fighter is much more aerodynamically unstable, and as such, much smaller disruptions to the airframe will quickly have catastrophic results.

Finally, it wasn't enough for the pilots to bring the airliner down. They had to be able to bring it down immediately in the spot of their choosing. Otherwise all they were doing was trading one target for another.

Consider, if you will, Korean Airlines Flight 007. This was hit by two radar-guided air-to-air missiles, and yet continued flying for some time, with pilots maintaining at least partial control as it slowly descended. It did not explode, it did not break up, and it did not suddenly plummet straight to earth. In fact, it continued flying for another ten minutes before it finally crashed.

 

[gumboot]

When I said SOF Borgstrum was ordered up before the false 9:21 report about phantom 11,I wasn't referring to the 9:24 scramble order. I was referring to the phone call Borgstrum received from NEADS "leadership" (likely Marr) telling him to suit up and join the others at Battle Stations.
That call had to have come before the false phantom 11 report at 9:21. How do we know? Easy the other pilots were already at Battle Stations (ordered at 9:09) and by 9:24 (scramble order) Borgstrum was already at Battle Stations with the others already suited up,setting in his F16 with Hot Guns that he HIMSELF ordered armed after the call! Loading those guns took at least 10-15 minutes. That means the call came before 9:21 at a time when both hijacks they knew about had already crashed & with no reason the think they'd need a third pilot! Borgstrum was put up to get the SOF out of the way.

Um... have you ever actually read an interview with him? Because that's not what he said happened at all. I've bolded the relevant bits that directly contradict your silly little fantasy.

F: Must have been the Northeast.

B: Yea, so I got on the phone and to this day, I don't know who it was. The guy just said "how many airplanes can you get airborne right now?"
I said "there is two on battle on battle stations right now",
he said "that's not what I asked, how many total airplanes can you send up?"
I said "I'll give you three" he said "go".
Then at that point, then I realized that this is pretty odd, but still I had not really correlated what had happened, just the severity of the situation. I don't think anybody before that day could really fathom what had happened.

B: So I called the wing commander real quick at Fargo. I called the command post real quick, he was already there, so I talked to him for about 10 seconds. Just to let you know they are sending all three of us up.

F: The other jet is loaded or not loaded?

B: It is a spare, it is on alert. So I ran and got my gear, by the time I got my gear, the horn sounded again with a green light, an activation scramble.
In a matter of a couple minutes we went from a 2-ship to a 3-ship.

Interview of Capt. Borgstrom

No one will take you seriously, FrankHT, when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[progge]

Actually, FrankHT kind of got it right with respect to the timeline. The relevant conversation between Langley and NEADS is contained in the NEADS Tapes, ch. 19 (SD2 OP), taking place at 09:14:30 EDT:

MALE SPEAKER 5: (Inaudible) Johnson.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Yes, this is Major Anderson from the Northeast Air Defense Sector.
MALE SPEAKER 5: Yes, sir.
MALE SPEAKER 6: I'm looking for your SOF, if he's available. Actually, you can maybe answer my question.
MALE SPEAKER 5: Yep.
MALE SPEAKER 6: We're wanting to know how many aircraft you have down there with your spares, and how many pilots if we possibly need them.
MALE SPEAKER 5: Four and three.
MALE SPEAKER 6: You have four aircraft and three pilots?
MALE SPEAKER 5 Yep.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Okay. Are all three pilots there and able to fly?
MALE SPEAKER 5: We have three total, so (inaudible), yeah.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Okay. So basically what I'm requesting you to do is get those guys ready to go and keep them basically on status. We'll let you know once we know.
MALE SPEAKER 5: Hang on one -- Borgy, come here. I got the SOF for you right now.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Okay.
MALE SPEAKER 7: This is Captain Borgstrom.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Hey. This is Major Anderson, the MCC at NEADS.
MALE SPEAKER 7: Hey, what's up?
MALE SPEAKER 6: If you guys have been watching the news, I'm sure you're probably aware now we're -- we're wanting to -- we just wanted to confirm your number of aircraft and pilots available if we need to scramble you guys, if we can scramble more than two. So I was told you have four airplanes and three pilots. Is that correct?
MALE SPEAKER 7: That's correct, with no SOF. But yeah, we can get three airborne if we have to.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Okay. Just stand by to stand by. We'll let you know if we need to do that, but you can only put three in the air, so we need to --
MALE SPEAKER 7: Only two hot birds. You understand that, correct?
MALE SPEAKER 6: Understand that.
MALE SPEAKER 7: Okay.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Okay.
MALE SPEAKER 7: All right. We'll, we'll gin another up.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Okay.
MALE SPEAKER 7: Thanks.
MALE SPEAKER 6: Thanks. Bye. Hey, Langley -- Langley has four aircraft, but they only got three pilots. So they can have two hot birds and they're ginning up the other one to fly. They can put three in the air if they have to.

 

[000063]

Huh? You do realize that frivolous use of the debunking dog results in the death of a kitten somewhere in the world, don't you?

Sorry, I thought you were FrankHT going for a Truther Superposition claim, So he can dodge one way or another as the evidence indicates. I need sleep. Sorry.

 

[gumboot]

According to Miles Kara's extensive collection of information, the maximum operational speed of the F15As from Otis, in the alert configuration (which, I believe, was 0x2x4+3) was 750KT (863MPH) at 40,000ft. That gives you an idea of the effect drag from a weapons payload has on a fighter - in slick configuration an F-15A is capable of almost double that speed.

 

[thedopefishlives]

According to Miles Kara's extensive collection of information, the maximum operational speed of the F15As from Otis, in the alert configuration (which, I believe, was 0x2x4+3) was 750KT (863MPH) at 40,000ft. That gives you an idea of the effect drag from a weapons payload has on a fighter - in slick configuration an F-15A is capable of almost double that speed.

Hence the emphasis on the F-22/F-35 projects of internal weapons storage. Keeping the fighter as clean as possible improves its baseline speed without burning more fuel, or conversely, improves its loitering time by reducing fuel usage while maintaining speed.

 

[FrankHT]

Um... have you ever actually read an interview with him? Because that's not what he said happened at all. I've bolded the relevant bits that directly contradict your silly little fantasy.



No one will take you seriously, FrankHT, when you don't know what you're talking about.

Actually,I'm far more right than I am wrong. I said The call telling SOF Borgstrum to go up with the others came before 9:21 (phantom 11 report) and it did. 9:14. That means he was ordered up at a time when they knew of NO REASON to put up a third fighter. They had no target,knew of NO hijacked aircraft,why put the SOF up? If not to get him out of the way?
It really doesn't matter if the spare F16 had it's guns loaded or not BUT if it did explain this:
"MALE SPEAKER 7: Only two hot birds. You understand that, correct?
MALE SPEAKER 6: Understand that."[Quote-from NORAD tapes above]
or the account in Lynn Spencer's book 'Touching History' based on interviews with the "key" players. In it (page 119) Borgstrum orders his guns loaded as he's heading out the door to suit up. One thing is for sure though,I didn't just make this stuff up!

 

[DGM]

Actually,I'm far more right than I am wrong. I said The call telling SOF Borgstrum to go up with the others came before 9:21 (phantom 11 report) and it did. 9:14. That means he was ordered up at a time when they knew of NO REASON to put up a third fighter. They had no target,knew of NO hijacked aircraft,why put the SOF up? If not to get him out of the way?

They knew of two. That means there was potential for more. Seams obvious.

How would you figure there was no reason? Is two the limit?

You're making this up based on procedures that exist only in your head.

 

[DGM]

FrankHT:

I noticed that your belief of the US response should have been reactive instead of proactive. This is evident in this statement:

That means he was ordered up at a time when they knew of NO REASON to put up a third fighter. They had no target,knew of NO hijacked aircraft,why put the SOF up?

Why would you think it should have been this way?

I don't expect you to provide a reasoned response but I do know people will notice when you don't.

 

[gumboot]

Actually,I'm far more right than I am wrong. I said The call telling SOF Borgstrum to go up with the others came before 9:21 (phantom 11 report) and it did. 9:14. That means he was ordered up at a time when they knew of NO REASON to put up a third fighter. They had no target,knew of NO hijacked aircraft,why put the SOF up? If not to get him out of the way?
It really doesn't matter if the spare F16 had it's guns loaded or not BUT if it did explain this:
"MALE SPEAKER 7: Only two hot birds. You understand that, correct?
MALE SPEAKER 6: Understand that."[Quote-from NORAD tapes above]
or the account in Lynn Spencer's book 'Touching History' based on interviews with the "key" players. In it (page 119) Borgstrum orders his guns loaded as he's heading out the door to suit up. One thing is for sure though,I didn't just make this stuff up!

That was merely Major Anderson finding out how many fighters they could put up, if necessary. In your head it's NEADS ordering Borgstrom into the air, but it's not.

And it's Borgstrom, not Borgstrum.

 

[gumboot]

They knew of two. That means there was potential for more. Seams obvious.

How would you figure there was no reason? Is two the limit?

You're making this up based on procedures that exist only in your head.

Actually a that time, there could have been as many as four. NEADS knew AA11 and UA175 were suspected hijacks, and they knew two aircraft had crashed into the WTC. They didn't at that point, know if these were the same aircraft. They could have been separate.

 

[DGM]

Actually a that time, there could have been as many as four. NEADS knew AA11 and UA175 were suspected hijacks, and they knew two aircraft had crashed into the WTC. They didn't at that point, know if these were the same aircraft. They could have been separate.

True. This also does not diminish the point as to how they would know if there would be more. This bolsters the proactive as opposed to the reactive response..

 

[FrankHT]

FrankHT:

I noticed that your belief of the US response should have been reactive instead of proactive.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have been on here weeks (maybe months) saying as soon as they couldn't confirm AA11 hit WTC1 that they should have scrambled Langley and put those aircraft up over top of Washington,DC,in case it were to head that way (proactive). A position from which it could be defended from ALL directions (including the South West from which AA77 approached).
It's the members of this form,defenders the official story,who have defended MARR's decision to wait until he had a 'target' (reactive). Trouble is AA11 was descending when they lost the signal. If it didn't hit WTC1 and continued to descend,then it could have been flying under radar! It could have flown the 200 miles to Washington,DC, and NEVER appeared on their screens as a target! They had to have known of that possibility and weren't going to a damn thing about it!
So,tell me why did they think they needed 3 aircraft out of Langley at 9:14? What prompted Nasypany to request Langley be scrambled at 9:09? Could it be the FAA told the truth in it's original time line? According to which (revised 2004) at 9:09 the FAA reported that there were as many as 11 possibly hijacked aircraft. Something had to convince the other people at NEADS that putting up the SOF was a good idea.

 

[FrankHT]

FrankHT:

I noticed that your belief of the US response should have been reactive instead of proactive.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have been on here weeks (maybe months) saying as soon as they couldn't confirm AA11 hit WTC1 that they should have scrambled Langley and put those aircraft up over top of Washington,DC,in case it were to head that way (proactive). A position from which it could be defended from ALL directions (including the South West from which AA77 approached).
It's the members of this form,defenders the official story,who have defended MARR's decision to wait until he had a 'target' (reactive). Trouble is AA11 was descending when they lost the signal. If it didn't hit WTC1 and continued to descend,then it could have been flying under radar! It could have flown the 200 miles to Washington,DC, and NEVER appeared on their screens as a target! They had to have known of that possibility and weren't going to a damn thing about it!
So,tell me why did they think they needed 3 aircraft out of Langley at 9:14? What prompted Nasypany to request Langley be scrambled at 9:09? Could it be the FAA told the truth in it's original time line? According to which (revised 2004) at 9:09 the FAA reported that there were as many as 11 possibly hijacked aircraft. Something had to convince the other people at NEADS that putting up the SOF was a good idea.

 

[FrankHT]

Actually a that time, there could have been as many as four. NEADS knew AA11 and UA175 were suspected hijacks, and they knew two aircraft had crashed into the WTC. They didn't at that point, know if these were the same aircraft. They could have been separate.

Make that two. UA175 never turned it's transponder off & United Airlines confirmed it was their plane almost immediately.

 

[DGM]

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have been on here weeks (maybe months) saying as soon as they couldn't confirm AA11 hit WTC1 that they should have scrambled Langley and put those aircraft up over top of Washington,DC,in case it were to head that way (proactive).

Why? did they know at that point there were more? Should they have scrambled jets in
LA? How about Germany? The point I made (not surprising) flew over your head.

 

[FrankHT]

Why? did they know at that point there were more? Should they have scrambled jets in
LA? How about Germany? The point I made (not surprising) flew over your head.

I should go pull the interview with Cheapshot (Scoggins) where he explains why he speculated where AA11 was where he said it was at 9:21.