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What actually do JREF religious believers believe?

....[snipped a bunch of round the mulberry bush sidestepping of the issue]
Which god myths do you find uncertainty about regarding the myth aspect?


....I believe you and I have already discussed at length our opinions about how much or little evidence bears on supernatural ontological questions. We didn't reach a satisfactory resolution. Fortunately, reopening that discussion wouldn't plausibly cast any light on qayak's remark about some supposed incompatibility of agnosticism in supernatural questions with a confident categorical disbelief in characters whose very point is that they are make-believe.

Best, then, to file this under "already asked and answered," since it has been.
What point are you even making here? Who cares about a debate over the supernatural being outside the realm of reality or whatever it is you are on about apologizing for faith based (i.e. evidence-less) beliefs.

The question remains: Name a single god belief that is not a myth. Define a single god that is not a myth.
 
Ginger, as I said, your question was asked and answered. Your not liking the answer you got doesn't entitle you to a different one.
 
In truth, hand washing would have done wonders to decrease the spread of disease (nowhere to be found in JudeoChristian traditions though they care to wash feet) and all the pork needed was thorough cooking, not banning.

So your argument is that your superior knowledge from 2,000+ years later in time "proves" there is no value in Jewish dietary law. Must be nice to be so infallible.

1 through 4 of the commandments are useless rules to worship a particular god myth. And I'm pretty sure the other six were the cultural norm without the list.

Useless to you, perhaps, but not to the founder of a monotheistic society, and it might be a requisite step on the "many gods to one god to no god" progression needed for an advanced society.

Are you under the false impression societies didn't already have structure including rules? One need merely look at primitive tribal societies that still exist today to see adding something like the 10 Commandments would just be superfluous.

If that's true, why not shut down the courts, fire the lawyers, and tear up the law books?
 
The rules that work are usually found around the world in all cultures, because when the religious crap is discarded, there's some things that work everywhere for everyone, all the time. Nothing magical about this.

I would be very interested in learning how you made the gigantic leap from what I posted to what you responded, as I proposed no magic.
 
So your argument is that your superior knowledge from 2,000+ years later in time "proves" there is no value in Jewish dietary law. Must be nice to be so infallible.

It's nothing to do with being infallible. It's to do with being right.
Superior knowledge tells us that bleeding is a medical procedure which is not only of no value, it is positively harmful.
Superior knowledge tells us that Jewish dietary law has no value.
 
I think it's silly to say that nothing good ever came from religion.

But , it's also silly to say nothing good came from the Nazi's (the autobahn for example is a good thing).

That doesn't mean we should ignore all the lousy bits though. "so they killed a few million people, look at these nice, wide, flat roads!!!"


Religion has done some good, but it's done a heapin' helpin' of bad too. To try and state that humans would have no morality without Jesus is silly. Amazonian tribes seem to function pretty well without Jesus. Well, until the missionaries came and give em all Cholera........
 
Useless to you, perhaps, but not to the founder of a monotheistic society, and it might be a requisite step on the "many gods to one god to no god" progression needed for an advanced society.
Did someone forget to tell the Japanese?
 
Ginger, as I said, your question was asked and answered. Your not liking the answer you got doesn't entitle you to a different one.
That gobbledygook did not answer my very straight forward questions so I'll take this as you can neither define a god that isn't a myth nor do you know of any gods described by believers through history that there is any evidence are not myths.

Your answer is no more than another version of NOMa, claiming we should consider some reality outside of real reality.
 
So your argument is that your superior knowledge from 2,000+ years later in time "proves" there is no value in Jewish dietary law. Must be nice to be so infallible.
I'm not sure what your position is here. Are you claiming there was some health benefit in the Jewish dietary restrictions? Because avoiding trichinosis was a pretty minor benefit consider all one needed was to ban undercooked pork. And, yes, the apology of some benefit bestowed by a god on its people has pretty much been debunked by the science 2,000 years later.

Useless to you, perhaps, but not to the founder of a monotheistic society, and it might be a requisite step on the "many gods to one god to no god" progression needed for an advanced society.
Who cares that someone pretends the 'single god' myth is superior to a 'multiple gods' myth? It doesn't make either belief less of a myth.

If that's true, why not shut down the courts, fire the lawyers, and tear up the law books?
:boggled:

I think you totally missed the point. Let me restate it. You don't need a god to have laws neither is there any evidence the 10 Commandments provided laws to a previously lawless society.
 
And the single god has proved to be very lethal to those with a belief in many, or none. Or even the wrong view of the single guy.
We can't get shed of that superstition soon enough!
 
Gods = magic.

I said religion, not gods. As an atheist, I believe in no gods. As a pragmatist, I recognize some good has come from religion. Has the good been outweighed by the bad? Possibly. But I am not conceited enough to think that I know everything there is to know. And I have not converted from the religion of catholicism to the religion of skepticism. I view both cults with equal suspicion.
 
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I said religion, not gods. As an atheist, ...And I have not converted from the religion of catholicism to the religion of skepticism. I view both cults with equal suspicion.
There's your problem right there, at least as far as understanding people's comments about magic. Skepticism is not a cult or religion and scientific evidence based beliefs are not the same as magical thinking.
 
Skepticism is not a cult or religion

As practiced on this forum it often is. Bold pronouncements with little or no supporting data. Dismissal of opposing opinions. One or two "high priests" controlling discussion. I could go on, but I think that is enough to support my contention.
 
So, presumably you just need to be ignorant of both what is a religion, and what's this newfangled burden of proof, for them to look alike? In the same way as if you have no clue what either medicine and homeopathy are, you can conclude that they're the same because some guy in a white robe tells you to take some pills? :p
 
As practiced on this forum it often is. Bold pronouncements with little or no supporting data. Dismissal of opposing opinions. One or two "high priests" controlling discussion. I could go on, but I think that is enough to support my contention.

Who are the high priests of the discussion on this forum?

That's just nonsense.

I've had arguments with people here that I agree with on a thousand other things and agreed with people I have never exchanged words with.

Your arguments will generally stand or fall on their own strengths here.
 
Aye, that's a good point. I'd like to know what church he went to, if they went by any other criterion -- sane or woo, doesn't matter -- of who's right and who's wrong, than that the priest is right.
 
As practiced on this forum it often is. Bold pronouncements with little or no supporting data. Dismissal of opposing opinions. One or two "high priests" controlling discussion. I could go on, but I think that is enough to support my contention.
.
Thinking is painful.
When first exposed to the need to think, the usual response is "You're a buncha booger-snots".... QED.
 
As practiced on this forum it often is. Bold pronouncements with little or no supporting data. Dismissal of opposing opinions.
Sometimes people are tired of providing the evidence (or, more often, pointing out the lack of evidence) the tenth time someone arrives and makes a claim that's been comprehensively dealt with many times before.
One or two "high priests" controlling discussion. I could go on, but I think that is enough to support my contention.
Can you give an example? That doesn't sound like this place at all; I've certainly never been 'controlled' as far as I can recall. More likely, on any particular topic one or two people have specific knowledge or an interest, and tend to be the ones following most closely and posting replies first. If they're covering the main points, there's not much left for others to do except to agree.
 
As practiced on this forum it often is. Bold pronouncements with little or no supporting data. Dismissal of opposing opinions. One or two "high priests" controlling discussion. I could go on, but I think that is enough to support my contention.
Pigs flying through the air. Poodles larger than elephants. Square circles.

It helps if you do more than state random things to support your contention, like for instance actually show evidence for those things.
 

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