Honor killing in Pakistan

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

x2. I am quite sure that all we need to do and importantly should do, is show that there is another way whereby a society functions perfectly well, if not better without honour killings.

Yes, but the question Brainache was asking is 'How?'. SG didn't answer that. How would you suggest we show these people there is another way?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Everything I have read so far about morals suggests like the predisposition to learn to talk, walk and be social animals, we also have a predisposition for morals.

We are not 'predisposed' to do any of those things. You know what happens to a child that is raised without anyone speaking to it, or being taught to speak? Google 'Russian Bird Boy'. From other examples of Feral Children, and studies into learning it has been shown that if a child is not taught to speak by around the age of 7 or onwards, it will never learn to speak - certainly not properly.

So we are born as a blank canvas, but with the paint already on it ready to make the picture.

Yes, and we have to learn how to paint. Just because we are born with legs, does not mean we are born with the knowledge of how to use them 'baked-in' - it is something we learn. Google 'Goat Boy' - was he born predisposed to walking on all fours, or is that something he picked up by learning from the goats who raised him? If we were born predisposed to walking upright, then he would have done that regardless of what the goats 'taught' him.

 

[Nessie]

I have already answered that question, but again supporting local campaigns to show there is another way and by helping increase access to the interent so people can look for themselves (inbetween the searches for porn )

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I have already answered that question, but again supporting local campaigns to show there is another way and by helping increase access to the interent so people can look for themselves (inbetween the searches for porn )

Increasing internet access is more likely to be the best way - porn conquers all divides.

But in all seriousness, I'd agree that's the best bet, as the people would be helping themselves, and becoming more aware on their own without having Western values forced upon them - it would happen like gradual osmosis. Only problem is if you have people like the Taliban in charge, would they then forbid access to the internet for the very reason that it could cause the absorbtion of Western values.

 

[Nessie]

We are not 'predisposed' to do any of those things. You know what happens to a child that is raised without anyone speaking to it, or being taught to speak? Google 'Russian Bird Boy'. From other examples of Feral Children, and studies into learning it has been shown that if a child is not taught to speak by around the age of 7 or onwards, it will never learn to speak - certainly not properly.



Yes, and we have to learn how to paint. Just because we are born with legs, does not mean we are born with the knowledge of how to use them 'baked-in' - it is something we learn. Google 'Goat Boy' - was he born predisposed to walking on all fours, or is that something he picked up by learning from the goats who raised him? If we were born predisposed to walking upright, then he would have done that regardless of what the goats 'taught' him.

By predisposition I mean we have all the right tools ready to go and walk, talk etc

You have concentrated on two extreme cases with the feral children and I see nothing to say that the predisposition to walk upright or talk was just removed from them by the learning they had. They have developed legs over arms for walking and developed vocal cords, hence the predisposition I was refering to.

I agree there is learning invloved, but we have developed in such a way that the learning tends very strongly towards certain atributes such as walking, talking and a moral code which as sociable animals we do not just kill randomly.

Again, I think we pretty much in agreement here.

 

[Nessie]

Increasing internet access is more likely to be the best way - porn conquers all divides.

But in all seriousness, I'd agree that's the best bet, as the people would be helping themselves, and becoming more aware on their own without having Western values forced upon them - it would happen like gradual osmosis. Only problem is if you have people like the Taliban in charge, would they then forbid access to the internet for the very reason that it could cause the absorbtion of Western values.

We have the solution! If you think your daughter has brought shame on your family by her sexual proclivity, instead of pouring acid all over her, turn her into a porn star!

I bet the Taliban would be up for a porn industry to add to their drugs, alcohol and guns.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

By predisposition I mean we have all the right tools ready to go and walk, talk etc

Agreed.

You have concentrated on two extreme cases with the feral children and I see nothing to say that the predisposition to walk upright or talk was just removed from them by the learning they had. They have developed legs over arms for walking and developed vocal cords, hence the predisposition I was refering to.

They may be 'extreme' cases, but they illustrate perfectly what happens when a human being is removed from its normal environment/culture. Once again I agree that we have all the physical attributes in place for walking and talking, etc, but that these things need to be learned.

Morals obviously come from thought and the brain, but just because we have a brain (just like having legs does not mean we are all born to be professional footballers) does not mean the moral component is built in. Morals - 'right and wrong' are things that need to be learned, and are culturally subjective.

I agree there is learning invloved, but we have developed in such a way that the learning tends very strongly towards certain atributes such as walking, talking and a moral code which as sociable animals we do not just kill randomly.

Again, I think we pretty much in agreement here.

We are broadly in agreement, but I will say this; I believe it is morally wrong to circumcise a baby boy; this raises the following questions - was I born with this attitude, or is it something I have learned as a result of my culture; does this mean all devout Jews are mentally defective, as SG seems to suggest, or does their belief that circumcision is the 'right' thing to do stem from their shared cultural belief?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

We have the solution! If you think your daughter has brought shame on your family by her sexual proclivity, instead of pouring acid all over her, turn her into a porn star!

I bet the Taliban would be up for a porn industry to add to their drugs, alcohol and guns.

The Taliban are so hypocritical, they probably would.

I'll tell you a story now; when I was in the Omani desert about 11 years ago, we were told that under no circumstances were we to have porn brought into the country (through mail, or on our person or official freight) because of the strict religious sensibilities of the Islamic locals - we weren't even allowed magazines like 'FHM' or 'Loaded'. Naturally, blokes being blokes, such magazines managed to sneak through and - surprise - the male locals employed by us could not get enough of them.

The women who were out with us were given strict rules about covering up when out of uniform - they were not allowed to wear t-shirts and shorts in the middle of the desert - for fear of upsetting the locals. It was amazing how many of the local men (and even wandering nomads!) we had to dismiss for peeking through the panels of the female shower enclosure...

Even recently on one of my visits to Afghanistan, while going through the files of the various locals employed by the forces around the country, the amount of local men who had been dismissed for sexual assaults, harrassment or inappropriate behaviour towards female coalition soldiers was surprisingly high.

 

[llwyd]

We are broadly in agreement, but I will say this; I believe it is morally wrong to circumcise a baby boy; this raises the following questions - was I born with this attitude, or is it something I have learned as a result of my culture; does this mean all devout Jews are mentally defective, as SG seems to suggest, or does their belief that circumcision is the 'right' thing to do stem from their shared cultural belief?

Yeah, if we are all born with an inbuilt biologally based morality we seem to have curiously many conflicting moral views... Say abortion, gay marriage, women's rights, absolutely contrasting brain states - and moreover it seems that most brains currently in the world seem to have formed negative inbuilt moral views about these things. Unfortunately. Luckily the brains - maybe the genes - can change and the inbuilt moral system will inform at least some people to modify their primitive ideas.

Should one start breeding only the ones with the "right" inbuilt morality - or what is to be done with all this biological-genetic moral confusion and conflict?

 

[Belz...]

It is a side track. But the issue was some claim essentially saying their morals were no better than ours, we only think ours are better.

And this comes right back to westprog's post: how do you derive an "ought" from an "is" ? What if we _were_ wired to kill ? Would that make it right ?

It also doesn't change the fact that behaviour is largely learned. Our "built-in" morality depends on many factors, and is not as precise as you make it out to be. We have a strong tendency to protect members of our "gang", but to attack or ridicule outsiders, for instance.

 

[Belz...]

Well, quite. We do think our morals are better. They think their morals are better. The problem of course comes when we try to impose our "better" morals on these people who will resist our attempts with everything they have. All we get is more wars, more dead and no change in their cultural ideas of "Family Honour".

...and we've proven our morals aren't that much better because we're willing to impose them in the first place.

 

[Belz...]

They come from our brains and they exist.

That's a trivial point. It also doesn't show that morals are innate.

The fact they differ for individuals and the fact there is a range for 'ought' doesn't mean they don't exist.

No, it just means your oughts are different than mine.

Culture is not a variable that excuses any and all behaviors.

Someone disagrees on this ?

 

[Antiquehunter]

The Taliban are so hypocritical, they probably would.

<snip>
Even recently on one of my visits to Afghanistan, while going through the files of the various locals employed by the forces around the country, the amount of local men who had been dismissed for sexual assaults, harrassment or inappropriate behaviour towards female coalition soldiers was surprisingly high.

I must say, I find that surprising. Afghan men, approaching Western women in my experience, tend to be embarrassingly awkward and frankly - laughable. Perhaps the forced proximity of a military base differs - or perhaps your typical Afghan hires are different to my own.

Western women complained of Afghans staring at them, or making awkward comments, but I never had one actual incident brought to my attention of an actual concern that was a complaint/concern worthy of a firing and/or some sort of 'hearing'. My span of control was 90 Western consultants over 13 projects, and 330 Afghan staff. Approx 30-40 consultants at any time were women.

It is almost like they were a separate gender. Afghan males by and large, to my observation, had no idea how to conduct themselves around Western women. My hunch is that if complaints on military bases were common, was that people interpreted an awkward or strange comment as being an assault.

Please do not interpret this as being an endorsement of rape, or somehow insensitive. It is simply a fact that Afghan men generally have no clue how to address someone of the opposite gender, and the culture generally is very blunt and direct. If an Afghan man complimented a woman on their breasts, they need to be given a degree of the benefit of doubt. If a woman is uncomfortable by this attention they absolutely should draw the line in the sand and tell them this is unacceptable.

In my practice, there was probably no mechanism to levy a charge of 'sexual assault' - however on a military base with all the relevant niceties & structures, I suspect the opportunity is there.

-AH.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I must say, I find that surprising. Afghan men, approaching Western women in my experience, tend to be embarrassingly awkward and frankly - laughable. Perhaps the forced proximity of a military base differs - or perhaps your typical Afghan hires are different to my own.

Western women complained of Afghans staring at them, or making awkward comments, but I never had one actual incident brought to my attention of an actual concern that was a complaint/concern worthy of a firing and/or some sort of 'hearing'. My span of control was 90 Western consultants over 13 projects, and 330 Afghan staff. Approx 30-40 consultants at any time were women.

It is almost like they were a separate gender. Afghan males by and large, to my observation, had no idea how to conduct themselves around Western women. My hunch is that if complaints on military bases were common, was that people interpreted an awkward or strange comment as being an assault.

Please do not interpret this as being an endorsement of rape, or somehow insensitive. It is simply a fact that Afghan men generally have no clue how to address someone of the opposite gender, and the culture generally is very blunt and direct. If an Afghan man complimented a woman on their breasts, they need to be given a degree of the benefit of doubt. If a woman is uncomfortable by this attention they absolutely should draw the line in the sand and tell them this is unacceptable.

In my practice, there was probably no mechanism to levy a charge of 'sexual assault' - however on a military base with all the relevant niceties & structures, I suspect the opportunity is there.

-AH.

I too found it surprising, as I said.

When I say 'sexual assault', or 'harrassment', I mean such things as following women into the showers and attempting to kiss them while the women were naked, or approaching them when they were alone in their bedspaces and attempting to sexually assault them. Female soldiers tend to be fairly robust about sexual 'banter' and language - they have to be, so the things that were complained about were fairly serious.

As you say, this may well have been due to the nature of the location and working with these women on a regular basis. In nearly all cases - IIRC - the assailants were mostly interpreters, well-educated men, but still of the Islamic faith.

 

[Nessie]

Agreed.



They may be 'extreme' cases, but they illustrate perfectly what happens when a human being is removed from its normal environment/culture. Once again I agree that we have all the physical attributes in place for walking and talking, etc, but that these things need to be learned.

Morals obviously come from thought and the brain, but just because we have a brain (just like having legs does not mean we are all born to be professional footballers) does not mean the moral component is built in. Morals - 'right and wrong' are things that need to be learned, and are culturally subjective.



We are broadly in agreement, but I will say this; I believe it is morally wrong to circumcise a baby boy; this raises the following questions - was I born with this attitude, or is it something I have learned as a result of my culture; does this mean all devout Jews are mentally defective, as SG seems to suggest, or does their belief that circumcision is the 'right' thing to do stem from their shared cultural belief?

I think that another predisposition we have is to fight. We do it if threatened, attacked and to compete for scarce resources. But we also have a predisposition to love, our children, family, partner, friends. Morality, to help guide us with those potentially conflicting views has developed from those predispositions. So it looks like we are predisposed to have morals, but instead we are predisposed to have all the prerequisites to have and indeed need moral codes.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I think that another predisposition we have is to fight. We do it if threatened, attacked and to compete for scarce resources. But we also have a predisposition to love, our children, family, partner, friends. Morality, to help guide us with those potentially conflicting views has developed from those predispositions. So it looks like we are predisposed to have morals, but instead we are predisposed to have all the prerequisites to have and indeed need moral codes.

I think you are confusing emotions (which have a biological component) and built-in instincts (protecting our young in order to ensure the survival of the species, reacting to pain, etc), with morals - knowing 'right' from 'wrong', where 'right' and 'wrong' are culturally subjective.

Is it morally 'wrong' to take an infant boy and, without his consent or even knowledge of what's happening to him, remove a part of his penis for no reason other than tradition? Is mutilating babies for the sake of religious tradition a human 'norm'?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, but the question Brainache was asking is 'How?'. SG didn't answer that. How would you suggest we show these people there is another way?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Or is it that international social pressure as the world becomes more and more interconnected just not a concept you understand?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Or is it that international social pressure as the world becomes more and more interconnected just not a concept you understand?

No, I don't think I do. The term 'Social Pressure' isn't exactly specific is it?

Speaking of reading comprehension, are you ever going to answer the many questions I have asked you, or provide any links that actually back up several of the assertions you have made?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We are not 'predisposed' to do any of those things. You know what happens to a child that is raised without anyone speaking to it, or being taught to speak? Google 'Russian Bird Boy'. From other examples of Feral Children, and studies into learning it has been shown that if a child is not taught to speak by around the age of 7 or onwards, it will never learn to speak - certainly not properly.

Speech is a special case, I mentioned this particular issue earlier. It's well understood. It has nothing to do with moral thought/behavior nor is there evidence that all learning fails if not implemented early.

Yes, and we have to learn how to paint. Just because we are born with legs, does not mean we are born with the knowledge of how to use them 'baked-in' - it is something we learn. Google 'Goat Boy' - was he born predisposed to walking on all fours, or is that something he picked up by learning from the goats who raised him? If we were born predisposed to walking upright, then he would have done that regardless of what the goats 'taught' him.

There's also another thing our brains do. They don't always realize what they don't know. So someone who has not read much of the new studies that establish our moral slates are not blank at birth, draws conclusions that seem correct to them. They are not aware that they are not aware of the new research, so false conclusions appear correct.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Speech is a special case, I mentioned this particular issue earlier. It's well understood. It has nothing to do with moral thought/behavior

No, it doesn't. I have never said it does. I was replying to something Nessie posted to me.

nor is there evidence that all learning fails if not implemented early.

No, I agree which is why I didn't say that.

There's also another thing our brains do. They don't always realize what they don't know. So someone who has not read much of the new studies that establish our moral slates are not blank at birth, draws conclusions that seem correct to them. They are not aware that they are not aware of the new research, so false conclusions appear correct.

Another thing our brains can be taught is the difference between 'conclusive' and 'inconclusive', 'proven' and 'unproven'. Sometimes this takes a bit of effort.