General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bit_pattern]

I'm saying their technology is pretty primitive by today's standards. What's the CEP 50 on a Katyusha, let alone a home-made Qassam?

Not saying that the should be firing missiles at Israel, btw, just asking the previous poster for evidence that the rocketeers were deliberately targeting something as specific as schools and residential neighbourhoods.



Do you mean that Israel can only exist if its population is homogeneously (or strong majority) Jewish? What about all the other things that make Israel unique, such as its democratic tradition, relative secularism and freedom of the press? Or just the fact that Israel is a state, and so exists as a state the same way plenty of other states exist as states, regardless of their demographic makeup?

Also, what should be done about existing demographic challenges? Eventually
Arab Israelis will outnumber the Jewish ones, no? Or maybe I'm mistaken on this.



With current attitudes on all sides, you might be right... but say, hypothetically, that you could be assured that an Arab majority in Israel wouldn't mean that all the Jewish Israelis would be killed (the same way white people in the US probably won't be killed when they become the minority there)... would a two-state solution be OK?

Thank you for bringing some critical thinking back to a thread otherwise devoid of it. This thread is like an oasis of unhinging in the middle of JREF, a place to escape the hurly burly and leave your critical thinking skills at the door!

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Are you attempting a drive by?

Hamas does target Israeli journalists. When they indiscriminately fire munitions into Israeli neighborhoods, their target is anyone.

No, I'm asking for people's opinion on the morality of targeting journalists on either side.

I think their target is "Israel" writ large, but I'm interested in evidence their rockets are deliberately targeted at residential areas rather than at 'whatever we can maybe hit in Israel'.

 

[bit_pattern]

Well, that's a mighty impressive misrepresentation of the current situation there, but I can't say I'm surprised.

No, its exactly what happened.

http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2012/11/18/another-superfluous-war/

 

[balrog666]

Right, right. And what about when Canada is attacking in retaliation to repeated incursions by the USA that result in children being shot dead in the street, then the USA retaliates to that by firing tank shells across the border, then Canada retaliates again by firing a few backyard rockets over the wall of their concentration camp, to which the USA retaliates by assassinating a Canadian politician and chief peace broker, which triggers a wave of retaliatory rocket launches?

Whose the blameless victim then?

I made "backyard rockets" when I was 14 years old. If I had mounted 75-lb warheads on them, I would have expected to be shot on sight the next time I showed my face anywhere.

So ... in other words, that's just STUPID!!

 

[IDB87]

but I'm interested in evidence their rockets are deliberately targeted at residential areas rather than at 'whatever we can maybe hit in Israel'.

What would you accept as evidence?

The only thing those rockets can hit is a very large cluster of buildings, and the range on the rockets just happens to encompass places like Sderot, thus Sderot is routinely bombarded. Sderot has zero military significance, and is purely residential.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Even if they aren't firing specifically at schools, they sure are firing specifically at civilians, particularly in areas that have schools.

Okay, I'm just asking for some evidence of this. Have a disproportionate number of Palestinian rockets landed on or near Israeli schools?

That depends was the hostile force entering their territory in response to having their civilian centres targeted by rocket and mortar attacks?

Good point. We're just getting into chicken-egg territory here

 

[MarkCorrigan]

No, its exactly what happened.

Aside from your interpretation of 2000 rockets plus mortar attacks as being "a few backyard rockets" and your apparent belief that the main military leader of Hamas was a chief peace broker...it's also claiming that Israel were the original aggressors in this latest flair up.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Okay, I'm just asking for some evidence of this. Have a disproportionate number of Palestinian rockets landed on or near Israeli schools?

They keep firing at Sderot and other local towns with little to no IDF installations in them?

They sure do fire on the IDF when they get the chance, but they also fire at civilians. Frankly, I don't think that they care who or what they hit as long as it's Israeli. They don't seem to even care if they hit Israeli Arabs.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

What would you accept as evidence?

The only thing those rockets can hit is a very large cluster of buildings, and the range on the rockets just happens to encompass places like Sderot, thus Sderot is routinely bombarded. Sderot has zero military significance, and is purely residential.

Yeah, I'd buy that. They just shoot at Israel in general. This doesn't mean they're deliberately targeting schools or civilians per se.

And actually, lots of times they can't even hit that.

Given that Hamas reportedly says it was targeting the Israeli Knesset building in Jerusalem, that it missed not just the parliament but the entire city by almost 20 miles doesn’t suggest the most finely tuned aiming capabilities.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...salem-bound-rocket-actually-landed-on-friday/

The missiles only make sense as a strategic deterrent (i.e. 'we have the capability to launch missiles and generally make a nuisance') (or a strategic provocation tool) (if you're a chicken or an egg). They have (as far as I can tell) next to zero tactical utility.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

the main military leader of Hamas was a chief peace broker.

I posted an article earlier where it was suggested the guy wanted to try and negotiate a ceasefire with Israel right before he was killed.

 

[bit_pattern]

75-lb warheads on them

Did you just pull that number out of thin air?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

The biggest warheads (if you could call them that, lol) have been about 45 lbs but most are much, much smaller - about 25 lbs. The "long range" rockets reaching Tel Aviv and Jerusalem have had the warhead removed completely!

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Thank you for bringing some critical thinking back to a thread otherwise devoid of it. This thread is like an oasis of unhinging in the middle of JREF, a place to escape the hurly burly and leave your critical thinking skills at the door!

heh yeah internet threads often turn into mobius strips... you keep on reading and after a while you're right back where you started

 

[WildCat]

I posted an article earlier where it was suggested the guy wanted to try and negotiate a ceasefire with Israel right before he was killed.

What's there to negotiate? He just has to order his shorties to stop firing rockets/mortars.

Too bad, so sad he went "boom".

 

[WildCat]

Did you just pull that number out of thin air?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

The biggest warheads (if you could call them that, lol) have been about 45 lbs but most are much, much smaller - about 25 lbs. The "long range" rockets reaching Tel Aviv and Jerusalem have had the warhead removed completely!

A hellfire misslile has a warhead of just 20 lbs. I'm glad you approve of Israel blowing up terrorists with them because they are obviously under you threshold of being harmful, yes?

 

[Virus]

Dumbass terrorist tries to disguise himself as a journalist by spray-painting "TV" on his car.

 

[bit_pattern]

Aside from your interpretation of 2000 rockets plus mortar attacks as being "a few backyard rockets" and your apparent belief that the main military leader of Hamas was a chief peace broker...it's also claiming that Israel were the original aggressors in this latest flair up.

Lol, sorry if that conflicts with your internal narrative, hope the cognitive dissonance doesn't hurt too much!

A few points of order:

1. Qassams are mortars noe? ROFL! And you think I'M exaggerating!

2. Al Jabri WAS a peace broker, I'm surprised that someone who do confidently professes his superior understanding of the issue would be so spectacularly ill-informed. Maybe you should broaden your information circle a bit, try reading beyond just the official IDF line and the JREF echo chamber where you guys just confirm your own biases and shout down any dissent as being antisemitic?

Passing messages between the two sides, I was able to learn firsthand that Mr. Jabari wasn’t just interested in a long-term cease-fire; he was also the person responsible for enforcing previous cease-fire understandings brokered by the Egyptian intelligence agency. Mr. Jabari enforced those cease-fires only after confirming that Israel was prepared to stop its attacks on Gaza. On the morning that he was killed, Mr. Jabari received a draft proposal for an extended cease-fire with Israel, including mechanisms that would verify intentions and ensure compliance. This draft was agreed upon by me and Hamas’s deputy foreign minister, Mr. Hamad, when we met last week in Egypt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html?_r=0

 

[Captain.Sassy]

What's there to negotiate? He just has to order his shorties to stop firing rockets/mortars.

And Israel just has to stop airstrikes and incursions into Gaza... and round it goes eh?

[he's also got to try and stop other militant groups that are not Hamas from firing rockets... just saying...]

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Jesus christ on a bike.

1. Where did I say Qassam rockets were mortars? Please, point it out to me.

2. I stand at least partially corrected. Oh, look at that, someone presents information and I accept it, and change my opinion accordingly. Would that you would only do the same.

3. Where have I ever, EVER accused anyone of being anti-semitic in this thread, with possible exceptions of people like MaGZ or that 9/11 investigator person who were admitted anti-semites?

4. What is your expertise in this field, pray tell?

 

[Giz]

Do you mean that Israel can only exist if its population is homogeneously (or strong majority) Jewish? What about all the other things that make Israel unique, such as its democratic tradition, relative secularism and freedom of the press?

I mean that the democratic tradition, relative secularism and freedom of the press are Israeli values. They are NOT Palestinian values (as can be seen from a look at Gaza and the west bank)(heck, anywhere in the Arab world).

Or just the fact that Israel is a state, and so exists as a state the same way plenty of other states exist as states, regardless of their demographic makeup?

Are you saying that you expect a new non-Israeli majority to suddenly become culturally Israeli ? On what are you basing this expectation?

Also, what should be done about existing demographic challenges? Eventually
Arab Israelis will outnumber the Jewish ones, no? Or maybe I'm mistaken on this.

Irrelevant to the one state - two state debate.

With current attitudes on all sides, you might be right... but say, hypothetically, that you could be assured that an Arab majority in Israel wouldn't mean that all the Jewish Israelis would be killed (the same way white people in the US probably won't be killed when they become the minority there)... would a two-state solution be OK?

Do you mean would a "one-state solution be OK"?


Do you really think that these two arguments are of similar likelihood:

a) Jews wont be killed when they become a minority and Hamas, Fatah etc take charge
b) "white people in the US probably won't be killed when they become the minority there"

Cause I gotta say, that's not even an honest/sensible enough question to try and form a response to.

 

[applecorped]

He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War