How Dangerous is 9/11 Truth?

Scott Sommers said:
Yes, this is what I mean.

The transition being silly to being dangerous is not clear. The Aum Shinrikyo became dangerous one person in the group - Shoko Asahara - saw violence as the solution to the group's problems. Without his influence, Aum would have remained a humorous group of meditating people people. It's possible that without Robert Mathews, The Order would have remained petty criminals.

If I had to pick a naive, malleable group of people that could be turned into a crime gang, I don't think I could better than some of the conspiracy Truthers that I know from Facebook.
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That's an interesting idea, but I wonder if you're looking too much at the cases where an individual successfully co-opted a fringe group, leading them to become a violent criminal gang.

To know how likely this is, we'd have to have some idea of how often someone tried to do that, but failed. Unfortunately, data on that sort of failure would likely be much harder to come by. The evidence would be hidden in peoples' recollections, or possibly the minutes of the groups meetings; it wouldn't be a matter of general public knowledge like those linked above.

It would be an interesting study for someone who is serious about studying the sociology of fringe groups and their (possible) evolution towards violence, but I suspect it's beyond our capabilities here.
 
Horatius said:
That's an interesting idea, but I wonder if you're looking too much at the cases where an individual successfully co-opted a fringe group, leading them to become a violent criminal gang.

To know how likely this is, we'd have to have some idea of how often someone tried to do that, but failed. Unfortunately, data on that sort of failure would likely be much harder to come by. The evidence would be hidden in peoples' recollections, or possibly the minutes of the groups meetings; it wouldn't be a matter of general public knowledge like those linked above.

It would be an interesting study for someone who is serious about studying the sociology of fringe groups and their (possible) evolution towards violence, but I suspect it's beyond our capabilities here.
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Your point seems to be about the conditions that prevent potential violence from happening. This is a real problem you're asking about. But it is a little different from what I think we need to ask first. The first thing we need to know is whether or not 9/11 Truth constitutes the sort of people for which this could happen. There are groups it couldn't happen for. I doubt the Boys Scouts could be turned into a cult-like crime gang because they are large, diverse and not constructed around an ideal of moral superiority.

The counter argument so far is that advocates for a 9/11 Truth are such whinnies they would never do anything more than paint graffiti or yell at pedestrians. I am less clear this means they are not potentially dangerous people. In fact, I feel it is precisely these characteristics that make them dangerous.
 
Scott Sommers said:
The counter argument so far is that advocates for a 9/11 Truth are such whinnies they would never do anything more than paint graffiti or yell at pedestrians. I am less clear this means they are not potentially dangerous people. In fact, I feel it is precisely these characteristics that make them dangerous.
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Or punch girls in wheelchairs...

9-11 Deniars Arrested in NYC

From post 80:

A man heckling First Lady Laura Bush and daughter Jenna outside the 92nd Street Y was arrested after he punched a wheelchair-bound girl whose parents had told him to shut up, authorities said yesterday. German Talis, 22, was shouting obscenities at the Bushes, who were leaving the building Tuesday, when he crossed paths with Wendy and John Lovetro and their daughter Maureen, 18, who has cerebral palsy.
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"I heard my daughter hysterical yelling, 'He's hitting me!' " said Wendy Lovetro.

"He punched her on the shoulder blades, but that wasn't enough," she said.

"My husband pushed the wheelchair away from him and he reached beyond my husband and began pounding my daughter in the thigh."
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Scott Sommers said:
Yes, this is what I mean.

The transition being silly to being dangerous is not clear. The Aum Shinrikyo became dangerous one person in the group - Shoko Asahara - saw violence as the solution to the group's problems. Without his influence, Aum would have remained a humorous group of meditating people people. It's possible that without Robert Mathews, The Order would have remained petty criminals.

If I had to pick a naive, malleable group of people that could be turned into a crime gang, I don't think I could better than some of the conspiracy Truthers that I know from Facebook.
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Some truthers think creepy stalking Cheney at his house is funny.
 
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Sure, they're a pack of malcontents involved in endless bouts of petty crime and drug use. Some of them have friends involved with guns and groups like Oathkeepers. And they all think the US government kills people. Some of those people already are dangerous; some of them are waiting to be.

I don't see what it means to point out that some or even almost all Truthers are whinnies and can barely get out of bed. Everyone here knows there are Truthers hooked up with gun collecting groups. Bruno Bruhwiler was hooked up with FMOL groups before he got arrested for issuing threats to past employers. You may not be too impressed with him, but then he's also had much more police surveillance than anyone in the Aum. He and others are dangerous people. I wouldn't want them around my family.

I keep getting told about the really dangerous groups, like the Weather Underground. The WUO was made up of a fraction of 1% of the SDS. The people in Aum who made their weapons and did the actual killing were less than 1% of the total organization.
 
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NoahFence said:
They're far too passive to pose a legitimate physical threat. Each and every truther on JREF are too chicken(bleep!) to even respond to a post on the internet.

There's just no way they'd actually try to GET TO the real world, much less do anything when they get there.
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Dare me?
 
Dangerous? to the collective IQ maybe.... IMO, crazy people gotta be crazy. The fact that the might choose to be truthers too is just incidental. If it wasn't 9/11, it would just be something else.
 
As at least one other person on the thread has said it is really only dangerous to a person's mental health. If you persist in believing in something so stupid you are going to have to adjust your worldview to accommodate such craziness. I've seen other people end up going down the "question-everything" rabbit hole and by the end of it there is really nothing so crazy they won't buy into.

I absolutely don't see it as anything like treason or America-hating. Calling it treason makes it sound like something that needs to be taken seriously and it really doesn't. It's just stupidity.
 
If you look at other systems of irrational belief that attacked the state, like Aum or the Rajneesh movement, all were pointed in that direction by single individuals. I see the dangers of 9/11 and other conspiracies the same way. The lost souls that frequent Net forums like this and others aren't dangerous to many others than themselves - for now. There are dangerous people around these kinds of beliefs, as everyone here knows. So far, all of them have been so deranged they couldn't possibly have organzied anything. But if that changes, and it only has to happen once, 9/11 conspiracy beliefs are full of people talking about how the Fire Department of NYC conspired with the police, NIST and the Mayor's office to help Larry Silverstein make millions. They seem to me like ripe ground for a gang of whacked out killers.
 
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This is what Scott Sommers sermonizes about 9/11 Truth;

Scott Sommers OP said:
"...But my fear is that as advocates for a 9/11 Truth grow more and more desperate, they are more and more likely to do something crazy to promote their position. These are people who think they stand on some moral high ground. They don't just oppose the war in the Middle East. Oh no. They have the right reason for opposing it. It's not because these kinds of wars are hard to win and Bush had pathetic advise on how to handle the situation. Oh no. It's because Muslims would never do bad things to people and Bush had to make this up so he could get all that oil he wanted...."
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bolding is mine

Wishing to know the truth is as normal as having to have a crap.

So is having opinions regarding the events of 9/11.

There is little doubt you can find many despicable individuals who also happen to be seeking 9/11 truth.

No doubt you can find many despicable people who see no reason to question the truthfulness of the Official Story.

So what's your point?

It is not just those who follow Islam, throughout history, humans holding dogmatic beliefs have shown quite a capability for doing "bad things".

MM
 
Yawn...oh, I forgot. 9/11 Truth is the message that's changing the world. It's the heroes of 9/11 that have given us a new way to see construction, fire fighting, law and security and thermite and Larry Silverstein and direct energy weapons and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...9/11 Truth forever.

What's my point? That 9/11 Truth is a dangerous idea. That it's a powder keg of crazed out losers waiting to blow up. It looks like the guys from the local meth lab babbling like idiots about lasers from space and the free fall speed of the collapse, but so did the Aum, which started out as a yoga meditation group, or the Rajneesh, which started as a New Age therapy group. The ideas are so flaky it's like advertizing for psychopathic leadership. Groups like We Are Change could just as easily have attracted a psychopathic killer as their leadership figure rather than a crook like Luke Rudkowski. They're not picky and the membership is composed of such low intellect, they can be fooled by anybody. And they still could. Or rather, I'd say it's only a matter of time until they do.
 
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In terms of risk about the only real problem the 9/11 CTs present is that their theories form part of the mythology of various islamic radicals. Beyond that they are not much of a problem.
 
Scott Sommers said:
Yawn...oh, I forgot. 9/11 Truth is the message that's changing the world. It's the heroes of 9/11 that have given us a new way to see construction, fire fighting, law and security and thermite and Larry Silverstein and direct energy weapons and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...9/11 Truth forever.

What's my point? That 9/11 Truth is a dangerous idea.
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The world is full of ideas like that. They don't generaly cause problems.

That it's a powder keg of crazed out losers waiting to blow up.
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Crazed out losers don't generaly blow up. They may start shotting people but when you consider the number of school, mall and workplace shootings the US already has 9/11 CTers are never going to be more than statistical background noise.

It looks like the guys from the local meth lab babbling like idiots about lasers from space and the free fall speed of the collapse, but so did the Aum, which started out as a yoga meditation group, or the Rajneesh, which started as a New Age therapy group. The ideas are so flaky it's like advertizing for psychopathic leadership. Groups like We Are Change could just as easily have attracted a psychopathic killer as their leadership figure rather than a crook like Luke Rudkowski. They're not picky and the membership is composed of such low intellect, they can be fooled by anybody. And they still could. Or rather, I'd say it's only a matter of time until they do.
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And it will make no difference. To cause serious damage you need money and a certian pratical skillset. The 9/11 CTers don't really have either these days. Urban kids who spend their time on computers are not much of a threat. there's enough money in the overall CT community to keep a few people like Alex jones around but that is about it.
 
Miragememories said:
This is what Scott Sommers sermonizes about 9/11 Truth;


bolding is mine

Wishing to know the truth is as normal as having to have a crap.

So is having opinions regarding the events of 9/11.

There is little doubt you can find many despicable individuals who also happen to be seeking 9/11 truth.

No doubt you can find many despicable people who see no reason to question the truthfulness of the Official Story.

So what's your point?

It is not just those who follow Islam, throughout history, humans holding dogmatic beliefs have shown quite a capability for doing "bad things".

MM
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Ideas are what started this country. Ideas can be very dangerous, McVeigh took action on his delusional paranoid conspiracy theories, his opinions, his beliefs. While 99.9 percent of 911 truth takes no action at all, satisfied spreading their opinions based on ignorance.

911 truth and you are full of crazy claims on 911 and will never take action. It is your opinion, a belief, something you talk about but never will do anything about since it is BS. False opinions based on fantasy. Fantasy claims, only opinions, no action past posting opinions, based on fantasy.

If I knew that 911 was an inside job like 911 truth claims, I would be 24/7 proving it - 911 truth is a hobby for 911 truthers, an opinion they have. For a select few, like Gage, he takes silly claims fringe people believe and has made over 1,000,000 dollars selling BS.

We have the age old, out for the money, follow the money - it is going to Gage, who only begs for more while satisfying the failed opinions of a fringe few, made possible by the Internet. Gage sells lies and make money, the rest of 911 truth can't do more than talk the talk.

911 truth is less dangerous than 19 nuts with a belief, who took action. 911 truth does nothing, stands for nothing, and produce nothing but a loss, sending donations to Gage, buying idiotic books, and buying brain-dead DVDs from mentally ill nuts like Balsamo who runs a group for delusional pilots who can't do math.

911 truth can't do bad things, they can't figure out 911. Failure out of the box, they think opinions based on their beliefs are reality, and spew nonsense dumber than dirt.

The 19 terrorists took action, 911 truth spread lies under the smokescreen of questioning the "official story", of being skeptics, skeptics who spread lies and nonsense. I thought the 19 nuts who did 911 were stupid, especially the ones who learned to fly and still killed themselves for some failed ideas, but 911 truth requires a new definition for anti-intellectual spreading of lies.

911 truth is incapable of taking action, how can they be dangerous. ..., they fall for fake claims, what can they do in the real world? Nothing, except take credit for the lies of their masters, their leaders, the people at the top, like Gage, who take in the profits of spreading stupid to the gullible. 11 plus years of failure, shooting for infinity and beyond.
 
geni said:
The world is full of ideas like that. They don't generaly cause problems.



Crazed out losers don't generaly blow up. They may start shotting people but when you consider the number of school, mall and workplace shootings the US already has 9/11 CTers are never going to be more than statistical background noise.



And it will make no difference. To cause serious damage you need money and a certian pratical skillset. The 9/11 CTers don't really have either these days. Urban kids who spend their time on computers are not much of a threat. there's enough money in the overall CT community to keep a few people like Alex jones around but that is about it.
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Very true. Both these groups had plenty of technical expertise and money, and this was crucial in their ability to become dangerous. I don't want to overplay this. But I don't want to dismiss the dangers of groups that profess to believe the US government is part of a plot that has murdered thousands or more. There are conspiracy groups that are more than just keyboard commandos. We Are Change is a real world group that already conducts limited and pathetic political actions. I am a naturally-born Canadian and have only lived in countries with strict gun control. My belief is that the USA is awash with deadly weapons and that any disgruntled American is a threat to public safety. A group of disgruntled Americans who believe they and others are in mortal danger? Well you can take it from there.

Truthers may be pathetic, but are they completely neutral?
 
Scott Sommers said:
... So far, all of them have been so deranged they couldn't possibly have organzied anything. But if that changes, and it only has to happen once, 9/11 conspiracy beliefs are full of people talking about how the Fire Department of NYC conspired with the police, NIST and the Mayor's office to help Larry Silverstein make millions. They seem to me like ripe ground for a gang of whacked out killers.
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Kevin Ryan is starting to name names. He has a website out that names 19 alternative "terrorists". Marking them as targets?
 
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