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Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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Just so that we're all playing with the same definition, from wiki:

"Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy, or succinctness. It is a principle stating that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected."

If the question is "Does Mr. Obama have the necessary qualifications to be President of the United States?" then the non-birther answer of "Yes, he is over thirty five and is a natural born citizen of the US as demonstrated by his certified Hawaiian birth certificate"
makes far fewer assumptions than the birther arguments.
 
The premise of science is replication. 'Demolished" is an assertion unsupported by any fact. Science says, if you cannot replicate a thing, that thing is not worthy of belief.

One in Sextillion -- that's the odds the COLB is real.

Odds based on assumed numbers.

Here, let me run some calculations based on numbers I assume:
The chances of the COLB being real are 999/1000

Wait a second. I replicated the process and got a different outcome. Does that mean it is replicable or not Robert?
 
And the Hawian Authorities properly designated in statute have testified it is a true certificate.

FTFY, but yes.

Birtherism is all about making up new rules that apply only in this situation or only to Barack Obama. In this case, despite clearly written statutes about who is authorized to view vital records, the Birthers simply declare a new rule that the governor of the state "should" be authorized to view them, on no better grounds than that he is the governor. None of the Birthers seems to understand how the law and governance actually work. A governor cannot simply do whatever he wants. Since the governor could state no grounds for his requested access, beyond casual interest, he was properly denied access to the original. The Hawaii legislature has deemed who may access vital records and why, and the governor is not above that law.

And yes, we went through all this three months ago. We also went through it before Robert Prey arrived at it, but he disclaimed any obligation to familiarize himself with the existing arguments. The answer hasn't changed. And therefore the thread spins on through yet another fringe reset.
 
So now that the election cycle is over shouldn't all those cowardly members of GOP come out in favor of birtherism?
 
Nonsense - the simplest explanation is that the Governor cannot make good on his promise as it is prohibited by law.

With Obama's permission, anyone, especially his good "friend" Ambercrombie, could view it. But of course, that was never possible, since there was no BC. Just as elections clerk Tim Adams claimed. -- no Obama BC -- an open secret.

“During the course of my employment,I was told by senior officers in the City and County of Honolulu Elections Division to stop inquiring about Senator Obama’s Hawaii birth records, even though it was common knowledge among my fellow employees that no Hawaii long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate existed for Senator Obama."

And that is the plain Occam's Razor truth.
 
That's a great affidavit. He just makes up numbers out of nothing and then pretends they're real.


A bit late to this, but isn't it an example of the "Texas sharpshooter" fallacy? He's saying that the particular combination of "irregularities" he claims to have identified is highly unlikely. But if people are going to go out of their way to find "irregularities", there is going to be some combination of them in the document. Whatever set of "irregularities" he'd found, he would be saying that that particular set was highly unlikely. Basically, he's identified a particular set of "irregularities" and drawn a target around it.
 
With Obama's permission, anyone, especially his good "friend" Ambercrombie, could view it. But of course, that was never possible, since there was no BC.

How is that? There is nothing that says that Obama can just give permission to anyone he feels like to go poking through the Department of Health.

Robert Prey said:
Just as elections clerk Tim Adams claimed. -- no Obama BC -- an open secret.

“During the course of my employment,I was told by senior officers in the City and County of Honolulu Elections Division to stop inquiring about Senator Obama’s Hawaii birth records, even though it was common knowledge among my fellow employees that no Hawaii long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate existed for Senator Obama."

Some people want to write themselves into the story Robert. The Elections Division don't handle birth records. How would they have any idea about that. A low level elections clerk certainly would not.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-now/2010/06/there_are_some_people_who.html

Robert Prey said:
And that is the plain Occam's Razor truth.

I think you may need a new blade on that razor.
 
With Obama's permission, anyone, especially his good "friend" Ambercrombie, could view it.


No, if Obama wants to show anyone the info in his birth record, he asks for a certified copy like anyone else (I understand that he has already done this, and made the info publically available).


And that is the plain Occam's Razor truth.


Nope. It requires the invention of a vast 50 year conspiracy.
 
With Obama's permission, anyone, especially his good "friend" Ambercrombie, could view it.

Obama can make his COLB available to whom ever he wishes. The one he put on the internet.

The original record held by hawaii? Nope, it doesnt matter who he gives his permission to, the law is pretty clear on the records being made available. Even to Obama himself.

You continue to labour under, and repeat, a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the law.

Tell me Robert, do you have access to the original record of your own birth?
 
With Obama's permission, anyone, especially his good "friend" Ambercrombie, could view it.

No. This is the fourth time you've made this claim and the fourth time you've been utterly unable to cite any statutory authority for it. The President cannot compel Hawaii officials to permit third-party access to the paper original. And since you've consistently avoided every request to back that claim up, it's safe to say at this point that you know you can't.

Once again -- made-up Birther "rules" that we debunked long ago.

Just as elections clerk Tim Adams claimed. -- no Obama BC -- an open secret.

Because Tim Adams is such a credible witness?

The version of the story in the affidavit that WND wrote for him and paid him to sign for them contains a very different story than the ones he told to his white supremacist audiences during the preceding months. (Yes, Adams makes no secret of his being a white supremacist, and admitted on the radio that WND wrote the affidavit for him.)

He was a local minor election official, not the "chief" as he claimed. He did not have any authority to investigate the eligibility of candidate, nor statutory authority to view vital records. Nor did anyone else in his local Elections Division, contrary to his claims. He did not carry out any investigation, nor can he name anyone he knows who did.

His story has nothing to do with what he knows, but what he insists other people -- whom he refuses to name -- had heard from still more people, also anonymous. Hence his vague, handwaving story. If it was such an "open secret" among everyone in Hawaii government that the candidate had no birth certificate, why can't he name a single person who actually knew that? Is it so they can't hold him accountable?
 
With Obama's permission, anyone, especially his good "friend" Ambercrombie, could view it.

This is wrong. Obama cannot give permission for anyone to view anything except the records that he himself possesses. Which, coincidentally, he has done numerous times. If you don't believe me, why don't you take one of your Birther friends down to your own birthplace and tell the registrar that you give your consent for your friend to view your original BC? Doing this simple experiment would totally prove your point, if it were true.
 
With Obama's permission, anyone, especially his good "friend" Ambercrombie, could view it.

mr. Obama's copy of it, yes. The original held by the Hawaiian registrar - no.

But of course, that was never possible, since there was no BC. Just as elections clerk Tim Adams claimed. -- no Obama BC -- an open secret.

“During the course of my employment,I was told by senior officers in the City and County of Honolulu Elections Division to stop inquiring about Senator Obama’s Hawaii birth records, even though it was common knowledge among my fellow employees that no Hawaii long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate existed for Senator Obama."

And that is the plain Occam's Razor truth.

Occam's Razor states that the theory where you have to make the fewest assumptions is to be preferred.

Let's look at the assumptions that you need to make to accept that Mr. Obama is qualified to be president:

A. The BC presented to the elections officials is correct.

And now the assumptions for the Birthers:

A. The August 1961 birth announcements in two local papers were plants;
B. The BC was a fake either issued because of his birth in Kenya or somewhere else;
C. The elections registrar is complicit in the fraud;
D. The passport authority is complicit (as they issued him passports prior to this and raised no warning flags);
E. The registrar for the state of Hawaii is complicit in the fraud;
F. The press corps shown the copy and allowed to handle it are complicit in the fraud;
G. The faked BCs are good enough to pass casual inspection by various officials, but various Internet personalities can spot the problems in a scan; or
H. According to Mr. Epperly in Alaska , it doesn't matter where Mr. Obama was born because he's not white and the Founders might not like that.

Now, I don't know about you, but it appears to me that the Birther theory requires a lot more assumptions, and Mr. Occam's Razor would prefer the theory that Obama is a natural born citizen and therefore qualified to be POTUS.
 
Originally Posted by Robert Prey
With Obama's permission, anyone, especially his good "friend" Ambercrombie, could view it.


No. This is the fourth time you've made this claim and the fourth time you've been utterly unable to cite any statutory authority for it. The President cannot compel Hawaii officials to permit third-party access to the paper original. And since you've consistently avoided every request to back that claim up, it's safe to say at this point that you know you can't.

And once again it is you who needs to be corrected as to Hawaii law. Anyone who is acting on behalf of the party is allowed to view the record.

“§338-18 Disclosure of records...
(b) "The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:"


(7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
 
Robert, you seem to think that "A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant" means that President Obama can just say to whomever he likes that they can go look. It's not as simple as that. A person or agency usually relates to someone acting in a legal capacity in representing the individual, which the President duly sent to Hawaii on his behalf.

Gov. Abercrombie is quite satisfied about Barack Obama being recorded as being born in Hawaii. http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-01-19/news/27088112_1_birthers-political-agenda-president-obama

No comment about your 'expert' witness, Tim Adams?
 
And once again it is you who needs to be corrected as to Hawaii law. Anyone who is acting on behalf of the party is allowed to view the record.

“§338-18 Disclosure of records...
(b) "The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:"


(7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

Gee. I wonder if there are any specific governence for the birth records that you have chosen not to quote? I wonder also if you will actually prove your interpretation as correct by giving somebody a letter of permission and sending them to obtain access to your original record of birth, or if like Obamas lawyers they would be issued a certified copy. A certified copy as described in your own post... sheesh.
 
And once again it is you who needs to be corrected as to Hawaii law. Anyone who is acting on behalf of the party is allowed to view the record.

No, Robert -- no fringe reset for you.

As was previously told to you several times, while the subject of the vital record may designate a party to act on his behalf (and this is what Obama did in securing copies of his long-form certificate), the subject of the record does not have the statutory authority to compel the registrar to allow access to the original, either for himself or for his designee. This is the part you keep missing. The law is about who, not how.

Yes, we're all well aware of the statute that spells out who may inspect the information contained in vital records. You, however, left out the important part. In your haste to quote paragraph (b), you neglected to quote paragraph (a) where the "rules of the department of health" come into play. There is no provision whatsoever in the Hawaii DOH rules, which are lengthy and detailed and discuss in great detail the preparation of certified copies, for any party of any kind to access the original record. There is no provision either in law or in regulation that allows anyone to specify the manner of inspecting vital information.

The law is written to protect the privacy of the subjects. That is, it is written to guard who may learn the vital information as certified by the state. That is its focus. That is why it goes into great detail to set policy for what relationships must exist between the requestor and the subject in order for the request for vital information to be legally valid, and into absolutely no detail whatsoever to set any policy of any kind for how that inspection may occur. By statute, that is the discretion of the department of health, which, since 1962, has provided only certified copies. If the law didn't mention inspection of the original record, however, as one of the ways in which one could break this law, then it would leave a very large hole in it.

That doesn't mean access to the original must be necessarily allowed. If, under the present system, some person managed to gain access to the original certificate by subterfuge, persuasion, he would otherwise go unpunished for obtaining vital information. Yes, an additional crime may be committed in, for example, breaking and entering the vault where the record is kept, or bribing the janitor, but without the provision (unlawful though it may be to see the original), the information is left unprotected.

As a corollary, I may have in my possession certified copies of birth certificates for my employees if they choose to document their citizenship in that fashion for eligibility to work. Although I do not have a direct and tangible interest in their vital information, the subject of the record has chosen to disclose that information to me to satisfy my direct and tangible interest in his citizenship. If I, however, disclose that information to other parties, such as by leaving his employee file open on a conference table, I am liable for violating this law. This is one of the reasons employee records must be kept under lock and key.

For the fourth time, you have provided absolutely no statutory or regulatory authority compelling the Hawaii DOH to allow access to its original records. Your inability to see the fine nuances of the law and regulation do not permit you simply to repeat debunked claims.
 
And once again it is you who needs to be corrected as to Hawaii law. Anyone who is acting on behalf of the party is allowed to view the record.

“§338-18 Disclosure of records...
(b) "The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:"


(7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

This is the link to the entire document

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol06_ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0018.htm
 
And once again it is you who needs to be corrected as to Hawaii law. Anyone who is acting on behalf of the party is allowed to view the record.

“§338-18 Disclosure of records...
(b) "The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:"


(7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

And who is it, or which agency is it, that is acting on behalf of the registrant, Robert?
 
Robert, I'm going to ask you directly. Why does this matter? What goal do you hope to accomplish? Obama is president and will be four more years. And then he's gone. What do you think is going to happen?
 
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