General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Safe-Keeper]

And what about the embargo to Gaza, is it only about guns and rockets or also about tools for construction, etc.?

Was that a serious question?

 

[bit_pattern]

It's amazing how 90+% of those "innocent civilians" killled in Operation Cast Lead were military age males.

Lol! Denial: the sure fire psychological response to rationalise supporting atrocities to ones self

 

[bit_pattern]

And the thing about the Israel Huber Alles crowd is that they get s real hardon for this kind of thing, they actively support and defends Israel killing kids. Whereas I've rarely heard s critic of Israel supports Hamas for firing their rockets over the wall.

THAT'S the difference between you and me

 

[Virus]

What about in the West Bank?
And what about the embargo to Gaza, is it only about guns and rockets or also about tools for construction, etc.?
And why Israel is not accepting the two-state solution?

Israel does accept the two-state solution. The Palestinians don't. The maps they produce for school textbooks don't have Israel on them at all. There isn't even two states anymore. Gaza and the West Bank are at war with each other.

 

[PhantomWolf]

1948 to present.

This will be even better. Care to explain how Israel "started it" in 1948?

 

[PhantomWolf]

When Palestinians do it is terrorism.

Would you consider the firing of rockets at indiscriminative civilian targets to be terrorism?

When Israeli are doing it is counter-terrorism.

Do you consider striking valid military targets to be terrorism?

This is the classical "us vs them" logic

No, it's based on the actions of those doing the attacking. When the Palestinians go after civilians, that is terrorism. If they are going after military targets, that's not terrorism. For example. Palestinians fire a rocket at an Isreali tank. Not Terrorism. Palestinians fire a rocket at a school bus. Terrorism. Get the difference?

Israelis fire on a missile launcher or ammo dump. Not Terrorism.

Now if you can find cases where the Israelis have deliberately and indiscriminatively targeted civilians knowing they were civilians and of no threat and well away from any legitimate targets, I'll be glad to call that terrorism too.

 

[PhantomWolf]

And the thing about the Israel Huber Alles crowd is that they get s real hardon for this kind of thing, they actively support and defends Israel killing kids. Whereas I've rarely heard s critic of Israel supports Hamas for firing their rockets over the wall.

THAT'S the difference between you and me

Really, and you have repeatedly condemned the Palestinians for their firing of well over one and a half thousand missiles into Israel this year haven't you?

You have been pointing out how the money used to buy those missiles could have been used to buy food and medicines for the Gazan people, to help build up their lives instead of trying to take Israeli ones, right?

I must have missed those posts of yours.

 

[bikerdruid]

This will be even better. Care to explain how Israel "started it" in 1948?

like this...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/4maps.jpg

Edited by LashL: 

Changed hotlink to regular link. Please see Rule 5.

 

[bit_pattern]

like this...
[qimg]http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/4maps.jpg[/qimg]

Collective punishment at its biblical finest!

 

[Giz]

the people in gaza do have have any opportunity to live a secure and prosperous life.
it works both ways.

Hmmm, as far as "prosperous" goes, there was good economic growth... until the second intifada (can't blame the Israelis for sealing borders if it keeps out suicide bombers). And as for "secure" life: "Life expectancy is 73.4, placing the territories 77th in the world, compared with a life expectancy of 72.5 in Jordan, and 71.8 in Turkey" (from wiki).

Plenty of places could be worse than Gaza. (It's not the Israelis... its Palestinian culture that is the problem - and because the issue is cultural, rather than economic or geographical per se, I don't see the I-P impasse getting resolved until there is a remarkable change in Palestinian (and perhaps Arab) culture).

 

[Giz]

like this...
[qimg]http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/4maps.jpg[/qimg]

Seems like repeated attempts at genocide didn't pay off. In a perfect world, folks would get a clue and start seeing what benefits might accrue to them if they just tried playing nice for a change.

 

[Virus]

This will be even better. Care to explain how Israel "started it" in 1948?

Don't expect much more than scraps of rhetoric and Juan Cole posters.

 

[John Mekki]

Would you consider the firing of rockets at indiscriminative civilian targets to be terrorism?

In principle I would consider it so, yes.

Do you consider striking valid military targets to be terrorism?

Define "valid military targets".

No, it's based on the actions of those doing the attacking. When the Palestinians go after civilians, that is terrorism. If they are going after military targets, that's not terrorism.

The thousands of civilians who died during operation "Cast Lead" were "valid military targets"?

For example. Palestinians fire a rocket at an Isreali tank. Not Terrorism. Palestinians fire a rocket at a school bus. Terrorism. Get the difference?

And the stealing of Palestinian land, how is it called?

Israelis fire on a missile launcher or ammo dump. Not Terrorism.

Mm..
There are allegations like the following one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8257446.stm

Now if you can find cases where the Israelis have deliberately and indiscriminatively targeted civilians knowing they were civilians and of no threat and well away from any legitimate targets, I'll be glad to call that terrorism too.

And I assume you expect that, assuming for a second that Israeli fire missiles against civilians, they would say "yes, we expressely targeted civilians"?
Is this what you are looking for?

Now, back to the main point:
which is the reason Israel is stealing land from the Palestinians and what does this have to do with protecting themselves?

 

[WildCat]

the people in gaza do have have any opportunity to live a secure and prosperous life.
it works both ways.

Well they certainly did, until they elected a genocidal terrorist group which promised war with Israel as their government. Hamas then followed through on their promise.

Problem for the people of Gaza now is that they voted for war. When they decide they want peace instead things will change for the better.

 

[bit_pattern]

.

Problem for the people of Gaza now is that they voted for war. When they decide they want peace instead things will change for the better.

The people must be punished! Very biblical of you, very biblical!

 

[John Mekki]

Well they certainly did, until they elected a genocidal terrorist group which promised war with Israel as their government. Hamas then followed through on their promise.

Problem for the people of Gaza now is that they voted for war. When they decide they want peace instead things will change for the better.

You mean that Israel would have come back to the `67 borders and recognized Palestine?
So, why they are not doing this right now and why the stealing of land is a way to protect from rocket launchers?

 

[WildCat]

like this...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/4maps.jpg

Edited by LashL: 

Changed hotlink to regular link. Please see Rule 5.

That isn't even related to the question.

How did Israel start it in 1948, as you claimed? What happened?

 

[bit_pattern]

That isn't even related to the question.

How did Israel start it in 1948, as you claimed? What happened?

Um... they unilaterally declared a state and immediately initiated a pogrom against the native inhabitants there. Always a good way to forever put your neighbours off side!

 

[PhantomWolf]

In principle I would consider it so, yes.

At least we can agree on one thing

Define "valid military targets".

This is already quite well defined by the Genva Conventions.

The thousands of civilians who died during operation "Cast Lead" were "valid military targets"?

One of the issues in dealing with militants who don't wear uniforms is sperating out who are militants, who were in the wrong place, and who are genuine civilians who shouldn't have been touched. For instance the figures for Militants killed varies from 236 to 700, depending on who you include, who you ask, and when (Hamas interior minister Fathi Hammad stated that around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were Hamas fighters or militants from allied groups in 2010 after intially claiming it was far lower) so the answer is, we don't know. I suspect that there were certainly deaths that should not have happened at all, in war there always is, and I believe that Israel was totally in the wrong in destroying a lot of the homes and buildings it did during the raid.

Personally I think that they need to be far more restrained in their responses because killing of civilians is never good, and also because of the hysteria that comes out from the Anti-Israel brigaide whenever a child gets killed (though funny thing is it never happens when it is a Jewish child that is killed by a Palestinian. Where was the outrage when a Palestinian rocket was fired into a school bus and kill one of the students?)

And the stealing of Palestinian land, how is it called?

It depends on what you mean. I think that the continued settlements is wrong and needs to stop, that it would be good for Israel to pull back as much as it can, and for the areas along the border, do a decent land swap to compensate. For those that were forced to flee in 1948, compensation should be given. Those that left hoping Israel would be wiped from the map, not so much.

Mm..
There are allegations like the following one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8257446.stm

Mostly that Israel is using collective punishment, which as I previously noted, is wrong and they should stop doing.

And I assume you expect that, assuming for a second that Israeli fire missiles against civilians, they would say "yes, we expressely targeted civilians"?
Is this what you are looking for?

No, I'd rather see it come from an independant third party who investigated it and can show the facts without bias in either direction.

Now, back to the main point:
which is the reason Israel is stealing land from the Palestinians and what does this have to do with protecting themselves?

What land is Israel dstealing in Gaza?

 

[PhantomWolf]

like this...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/4maps.jpg

Edited by LashL: 

Changed hotlink to regular link. Please see Rule 5.

And that proves what? The UN was the one that determined the 1948 land slpit, not Israel (which didn't even exist at the time) and you have failed to adress how the increased land came about. Care to explain how what happened when the UN declared the 2 state solution in 1948 was "Israel starting it"? Inquiring minds really want to know.