General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[WildCat]

This is no surprise, Israel has a long history of divide an conquer - murder the moderates and the peacemakers, empower extremists and terrorists and then they never have to make concessions or be seem to be the obstructionist party
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Most significant was the attempt of Egypt to broker a cease-fire, which the various factions in Gaza accepted, and a key player of which was Ahmad Jabari, the chief of Hamas's military wing. For an account of Jabari's role in negotiations for long-term cease-fire negotiations since the Shalit release, read Gershon Baskin's insider account in today's Open Zion as well as in Haaretz. Jabari's assassination was a twofer for Israel -- they got rid of a moderate who was trying to produce a long term cease-fire, and they provoked Hamas into launching massive rocket attacks. The death of the family in Kiryat Malachi was the collateral damage of Israel's misguided policy. The last thing they want is the security offered by a long-term cease-fire with Hamas.

http://www.jeremiahhaber.com/2012/11/and-thats-why-israel-doesnt-want-cease.html?m=1

Man, it's like the 1930s all over again when the Jews provoked the Nazis to kill them all.

bikerdruid has a favorite web site he can show you that explains all this.

 

[WildCat]

Personally, I have never said that Palestinians are pure white, but..

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 4660 1840 6500 69
Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians 4 46 50 3
Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians 39 215 254 500
Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians 106 147 253 90
Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians 11 7 18 40
Foreign citizens killed by Israeli security forces 6 6 12 0
Palestinians killed by Palestinians 537 134 671 0
Palestinians executed by the Palestinian Authority 8 2 10 0
Palestinians executed by the Hamas Government 14 0 0
http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp

So by the same "reasoning" it can be shown that the US was the aggressor in WWII, after all we suffered no (or maybe 1 from a balloon bomb?) civilian casualties, while we killed hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Germans and Japanese civilians.

This is correct, yes?

 

[WildCat]

So you are using past wars to justify land grabbing today?

The land came under Israeli control when Jordan gave it up after their failed war to exterminate the Jews.

 

[WildCat]

Dunno about children, but if we speak about civilians:

At least 6,617 Palestinians and 1,097 Israelis have been killed since September 29, 2000.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

From the site of the UN

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/5...2/Body/0.7866?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=jpg


http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272

And therefore the US was the aggressor in WWII, correct? After all, our ratio of civilians killed to the enemy's is far crazier than that. And you believe that this ratio is direct evidence of who the aggressor is, correct?

 

[WildCat]

Palestinians faking injuries:

He got better?

 

[WildCat]

That's right. Israel: as innocent as the pure driven snow

That's what ***** me the most about you Israel Über Alles crowd, you can never see the slightest fault in Israel. Your opinions are worthless because your just raging ideologues, you can't see past the self righteousness of Israel.

I suspect a lot if it has to do with Arabs being Muslims, there is a faction of "sceptics" who think scepticism and neoconservative exceptionalism are mutually exclusive do forums like this attract the kinds of people who subscribe to Western chauvinism. With the case of the cold war Islam has become The Enemy so anyone fighting Muslims can do no wrong.

It's funny how Holocaust deniers and other raging anti-semites feel the need to accuse Israel of acting like Nazis when they're pressed against the wall.

 

[Virus]

It's funny how Holocaust deniers and other raging anti-semites feel the need to accuse Israel of acting like Nazis when they're pressed against the wall.

They enjoy the cruelty of comparing people who suffered genocide to their tormentors.

 

[bikerdruid]

So by the same "reasoning" it can be shown that the US was the aggressor in WWII

hardly.
by the time that america decided to enter the war, the war in europe had already been going on for almost three years.
the tide had changed already.

 

[WildCat]

hardly.
by the time that america decided to enter the war, the war in europe had already been going on for almost three years.
the tide had changed already.

What the hell does that have to do with my post?

Do you think that body count is indicative of which side is the aggressor in a war? Because that's what bit_pattern claims.

 

[Virus]

The left love it when Israel gets sick of rocket attacks and decides to fight back. They get to dress up in keffiyehs like a bunch of tools and parade around the street.

 

[WildCat]

Palestinians send their children to try to provoke Israeli soldiers:



"Oh look children, a soldier! Go scream at him and kick him while mommy makes a video! Hopefully we'll get lucky and he'll shoot you dead."

 

[Virus]

Ahmed Al-Ja'abari: A great "moderate" man of peace.

 

[WildCat]

Ahmed Al-Ja'abari: A great "moderate" man of peace.

Amazing what passes for "moderate" among Palestinians.

 

[bikerdruid]

so, now you guys are just going to spam the thread with videos?

 

[WildCat]

so, now you guys are just going to spam the thread with videos?

Do you think Ahmed Al-Ja'abari could be described as "moderate" as to his views on Israel?

 

[bikerdruid]

Do you think Ahmed Al-Ja'abari could be described as "moderate" as to his views on Israel?

can't watch your vid.
however, honestly...i doubt his views are 'moderate'.
hamas is an extremist organization.
the fact remains that there is an untenable situation in israel.
israel keeps 'importing' citizens from all over the world and giving them palestinians homes and land.

gaza is a travesty....there is great suffering there.
israel is not 'moderate' either.

 

[Mycroft]

The PA fully opposed the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, that's not a "concession", it was a means to weaken the Palestinian leadership by giving Hamas free reign over the territory. Oh, how noble



Again, not s concession. No one but the PLO wanted the PLO in power.

So the two best examples of Israeli "concessions" you can come up with are actually examples of Israel bypassing more moderate leaders in favour of empowering terrorists?

Cool narrative, bro

This is basically your conspiracy theory, and the conspiracy theory believed by a great many people who are anti-Israel. The idea that "Zionists" (AKA Jews) are master Machiavellian manipulators who are capable of maneuvering their enemies into actions against their own interests to further some master plan.

It's not just wrong, it's revisionist. Back in the 80's and 90's Israel complained that there wasn't anyone on the other side to negotiate with, and the international pressure was on them to recognize the PLO as representative of the Palestinian people. It was in conceding on this that led to the Oslo Accords and won Peres and Rabin (and Arafat) their Nobel Peace Prize. Claiming the secret motivation was to bypass moderates and empower terrorists is nothing more than a conspiracy theory.

 

[Mycroft]

The anti-missile system is named the Iron Dome. Which must be a deliberate reference to the Iron Wall concept that was proposed way back when the creation of modern Israel was being contemplated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Wall_(essay)

What is happening now has nothing to do with Nazi's, a unique brand of Palestinian thuggery, or anything else. It was predicted because Jabotinsky knew that Palestinians would react the same way any one else has done in the same situation, indeed, as the original Israeli's did in Roman times, with force. He proposes the only way to summarily deal with this is superior power, hence the Iron Wall, which now includes the Iron Dome.

So your conspiracy theory is that because Jabotinsky wrote an essay almost 100 years ago called "Iron Wall", that using the term "Iron Dome" is evidence of....I don't know what, you lose me there.

If there was a connection, why not just call the defense system "Iron Wall"? It's just as good a metaphor as "Iron Dome" is?

In any case, if you were to decide to look for facts instead of relying on the product of your imagination, you might have found this.

Etymology

Project leader Colonel S. and his team in the Administration for the Development of Weapons and Technological Infrastructure (Maf'at) had very little spare time, and only in the weekends could they think of an appropriate name for the system. According to Colonel S., "The first name I thought of was 'Anti-Qassam', but when the project started to move forward I realized it was problematic ... I sat down with my wife, and together we thought of suitable names. She suggested the name 'Tamir' (Hebrew acronym for טיל מיירט, Til Meyaret, "interceptor missile") for the missile, and for the system itself we thought of 'Golden Dome'. The following Sunday, 'Tamir' was immediately approved, but there was a problem with 'Golden Dome' – it could be perceived as too ostentatious. So it was changed to 'Iron Dome'."[9][10]

I know that some guy talking about it with his wife isn't nearly as majestic as imagining some grand Jewish/Zionist conspiracy that spans generations, but it is what it is.

 

[portlandatheist]

The Palestinians have worked so hard and so diligently this year to get themselves another Cast Lead. Will they get their wish?

 

[a_unique_person]

Why must the name be a deliberate reference for Jabotinsky? Aren't you assuming too much here?

Perhaps I am, but all it means is that they have arrived at the same place as Jabotinsky did way back then, it's still the same point he reached back then. The Iron Wall.