General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bigjelmapro]

As for the OP, I've listened to several guests and news anchors attempt to pin these targeted killing and others as some sort of extra-judicial killings, as opposed to a targeted killing as a 'method of warfare'.

Arguments?

 

[Doctor Evil]

Could they effectively hide rockets in agricultural fields?

By the way, lets hypothetically continue with what I think is your line of argument. It seems that for you using a military tactic is OK if it gives you an advantage. I think that Israel would gain a military advantage if it would indiscriminately bomb Gaza with all its air-force and artillery. Of course, this could result in tens of thousands of civilian causalities, but I do think it may push Hamas to the point in which they decide that attacking Israel does not pay off. Would such a tactics be OK according to your logic? If not, how do you decide which advantage is OK and which one is not?

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Looks like the story isn't quite what I thought it was:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/405383/20121115/gaza-hamas-truce-israel-jabari.htm

The Founder of Israel-Palestine conflict resolution think tank IPCRI - Israel/Palestine Centre for Research and Information - Baskin, met Jabari during the Schalit negotiations and kept communication channel with Hamas hierarchies open ever since.
Follow us
Follow @IBTimesUK Google Plus

According to Baskin, Jabari was "not an angel and not a righteous man of peace," but had however reached the conclusion that the continuous hostilities between Hamas and Israel were detrimental to both parties and to Gaza's people.

Baskin said he had been spinning trilateral negotiations between Hamas, Israeli and Egyptian officials that finally produced a truce agreement draft.

The draft was submitted to Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak and an inter-ministry committee was established to canvass the text.

"In Israel they decided not to decide," Baskin said. Then Jabari was killed.

"This is sad for me. I am seeing people getting killed and that is what is making me sad. I tell myself that with every person who is killed we are engendering the next generation of haters and terrorists."

So there may not have been (explicit) Israeli agreement here, it seems.

 

[bigjelmapro]

I never really understood this. I can understand people saying 'Hamas has no right to fight', but I don't understand people saying 'Hamas has to avoid residential areas'. It seems impossible, given the circumstances. In the Gaza strip, where else is there to put arms or fight from? As far as I know it's a pretty densely inhabited piece of land.

What makes you think that Hamas and other terrorist organizations actually try to avoid these residential and other previously protected sites? There's a slew of evidence of the latter; that Hamas focuses on exploiting these residential sites as its modus operandi.

And what is this 'right to fight' in the first place? They fighting the embargo/blockade that Hamas caused in the first place and continues to justify?

 

[WildCat]

By the way, lets hypothetically continue with what I think is your line of argument. It seems that for you using a military tactic is OK if it gives you an advantage. I think that Israel would gain a military advantage if it would indiscriminately bomb Gaza with all its air-force and artillery. Of course, this could result in tens of thousands of civilian causalities, but I do think it may push Hamas to the point in which they decide that attacking Israel does not pay off. Would such a tactics be OK according to your logic? If not, how do you decide which advantage is OK and which one is not?

For non-Jews fighting Jews = anything is acceptable.

For Jews fighting non-Jews = everything is a war crime.

It's very simple actually.

 

[BenBurch]

One side is much more evil than the other.

...

As long as there is a permanent refugee population both sides are equally evil.

Solve the *********** thing.

Give people back their homes or pay market rates. Most will never want to return, but that is the ONE thing that has been the sticking point all these years and they KNOW it. They do not want peace except the peace of the grave.

 

[bigjelmapro]

There is in fact a technical term used for that situation: embargo.

Which I've used before. The items listed on this embargo are debatable though.

 

[Giz]

As long as there is a permanent refugee population both sides are equally evil.

Solve the *********** thing.

Give people back their homes or pay market rates. Most will never want to return, but that is the ONE thing that has been the sticking point all these years and they KNOW it. They do not want peace except the peace of the grave.

Why don't they just say "600,000 palestinians left/abandoned their homes and at the same time 800,000 jews were forced from their homes in the middle east... lets call it even and move on"?

 

[WildCat]

As long as there is a permanent refugee population both sides are equally evil.

Solve the *********** thing.

Give people back their homes or pay market rates. Most will never want to return, but that is the ONE thing that has been the sticking point all these years and they KNOW it. They do not want peace except the peace of the grave.

When will my family be compensated by France for taking their property and evicting them from the country after WWI?

I'm thinking "never" and it hasn't been an issue in my life, nor anyone else in my family since my great-grandfather died in the 1940s. The Palestinians should do the same. They threw their property and money behind those who promised to eradicate the Jews, they lost. Such is life.

The Arabs who stayed in Israel are still in Israel, and didn't lose anything.

 

[WildCat]

Why don't they just say "600,000 palestinians left/abandoned their homes and at the same time 800,000 jews were forced from their homes in the middle east... lets call it even and move on"?

But it's not a crime to evict Jews from their property and country! Everyone has the right to resist the Jews, they secretly rule the world you know.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Could they effectively hide rockets in agricultural fields?

I think they quite often dig "rocket silo's", set up the rocket and split.
The fire remotely or by timer.

So yes, they could.

 

[Eddie Dane]

When will my family be compensated by France for taking their property and evicting them from the country after WWI?

I'm thinking "never" and it hasn't been an issue in my life, nor anyone else in my family since my great-grandfather died in the 1940s. The Palestinians should do the same. They threw their property and money behind those who promised to eradicate the Jews, they lost. Such is life.

The Arabs who stayed in Israel are still in Israel, and didn't lose anything.

Yup,

We have a very nice picture on the wall of the enormous mansion my wife's family owned in the Austrian empire. (not sure where it was, northern Italy I guess)

The borders moved and they got robbed of everything.

Would be cool if we got it back though. I'll host the next TAM if we do.
Promise.

 

[JihadJane]

("The assassination of Jaabari was a pre-emptive strike against the possibility of a long term ceasefire")

We Are Complicit

Obama's Kill List Policy Compels US Support for Israeli Attacks on Gaza

The US was once part of the international consensus against extra-judicial assassinations. Now it is a leader in that tactic.

By Glenn Greenwald

November 15, 2012 "The Guardian" -- Israel's escalating air attacks on Gaza follow the depressingly familiar pattern that shapes this conflict. Overwhelming Israeli force slaughters innocent Palestinians, including children, which is preceded (and followed) by far more limited rocket attacks into Israel which kill a much smaller number, rocket attacks which are triggered by various forms of Israeli provocations -- all of which, most crucially, takes place in the context of Israel's 45-year-old brutal occupation of the Palestinians (and, despite a "withdrawal" of troops, that includes Gaza, over which Israel continues to exercise extensive dominion). The debates over these episodes then follow an equally familiar pattern, strictly adhering to a decades-old script that, by design at this point, goes nowhere.

A lot of interesting articles are linked to in this article. Highly recommended.

 

[BenBurch]

When will my family be compensated by France for taking their property and evicting them from the country after WWI?

I'm thinking "never" and it hasn't been an issue in my life, nor anyone else in my family since my great-grandfather died in the 1940s. The Palestinians should do the same. They threw their property and money behind those who promised to eradicate the Jews, they lost. Such is life.

The Arabs who stayed in Israel are still in Israel, and didn't lose anything.

I know all that. I even agree. But I don't see any solution otherwise!

 

[JihadJane]

I think they quite often dig "rocket silo's", set up the rocket and split.
The fire remotely or by timer.

So yes, they could.

If the situation was reversed and it was Israel being squeezed into an ever-shrinking enclave by a super-power-armed-and-sponsored military behemoth, how would Israel defend itself?

 

[WildCat]

If the situation was reversed and it was Israel being squeezed into an ever-shrinking enclave by a super-power-armed-and-sponsored military behemoth, how would Israel defend itself?

Gaza is shrinking?

 

[Eddie Dane]

If the situation was reversed and it was Israel being squeezed into an ever-shrinking enclave by a super-power-armed-and-sponsored military behemoth, how would Israel defend itself?

Is Gaza shrinking? I thought settlement expansion was mostly done in the WB?

Gaza is no longer occupied. Hamas and other groups should refrain from constantly firing rockets over the border as it precludes normalising relation or even a cease-fire.

Then, Israel's cross border actions would clearly be aggression and could never be sold as necessary.

Non-violence is a much more productive strategy than inviting wholesale destruction of your own enclave on a bi-yearly basis.

 

[richardm]

The Gaza strip is very densely populated...Just look at it at Google maps!

I agree that it is densely populated, but despite that I can easily find areas on the strip that are several kilometres away from population centres. No doubt it is a lot more difficult to set up a rocket site in the wide open spaces though.

Edit: I see that this has already been noted.

 

[Morrigan]

Yes, psychopathic bullies invariably blame their victims. Where do you suggest that the people of Gaza relocate their children to? France?

How stupid. How about a different building, or group of buildings, than the one they fire their missiles from? Look at the map posted on page 3. Don't tell me all of Gaza is purely residential, but even in that particular residential area there are places further away from the playground, sheesh.

Translation: "Submit because we don't mind killing your children if that's what it takes."

More like, "If you want to fight us, at least stop putting your children in danger on purpose just to score political brownie points from useful idiots who'll call us psychopath child killers but won't fool anyone else still capable of rational thought."

Another child-killing psychopath bravely speaks out! Disgusting.

What total bad faith. Yeah, because they just gloat at killing children.

 

[ddt]

Is Gaza shrinking? I thought settlement expansion was mostly done in the WB?

Gaza is no longer occupied. Hamas and other groups should refrain from constantly firing rockets over the border as it precludes normalising relation or even a cease-fire.

It's no longer occupied, it's merely cut off from the rest of the world.

Then, Israel's cross border actions would clearly be aggression and could never be sold as necessary.

Non-violence is a much more productive strategy than inviting wholesale destruction of your own enclave on a bi-yearly basis.

The frequency of the wholesale destruction seems to coincide with the Knesset election cycle.