Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[robcasey]

Background!

Ok i may have only looked at one side of the debate before coming to this forum, you can take that as a given.

My mother who recently passed away was in very poor health most of her life. She was with other mothers and people of the time given many various drugs for various aliments during the 50's to the 80's. This was the cause of her ill health. People were pretty much used as unwilling lab rats back then.

Allot of these if not all of these drugs were not clinically tested correctly if at all and caused most of her health problems. One drug she was given to take the Brest milk away after I was born caused her to have thrombosis which nearly killed her. Another drug which was given for depression at the time was ativan. She was told it was not addictive. It turned out to be highly addictive and to cause convulsions in later life.

I don't trust medical science and for a very good and personal reason. So if I only looked at one side of the vaccine debate I hope you now understand why.

 

[robcasey]

Then mind your own tone and actually ask sincere questions. Don't expect your hand held when you come out of the gate guns a blazing. Ask specific questions for where you feel your deficits are and you will be provided with more reading material than you would probably like. I can be awfully nice.

Este

ok can we start with a link to just plain old debunking vacine CT. something simple for my simple brain plz

 

[Straw Man]

damm you started so nice and then you end with this!

Actually you're JAQ'ing off, making ridiculous claims and then expecting some kind of red-carpet treatment. All caps about vaccine conspiracies deserves mockery and ridicule.

Never mind you have gave me food for thought thanks for that. Clearly i do need to look closer at the evidence any helpful links would be appreciated. I came here to learn. keep ya mockery and ridicule for ya kids please!

Calm down, bonny lad, and I'll give you a canny bag of crisps.

I understand that you're here to learn, and that we can be a little brusque sometimes, but when you're a new blood and getting in the swing of things. As has been said, ask questions and take it from there. If you're making a statement about something, then post a link too, so that it can be discussed.

 

[robcasey]

Calm down, bonny lad, and I'll give you a canny bag of crisps.

I understand that you're here to learn, and that we can be a little brusque sometimes, but when you're a new blood and getting in the swing of things. As has been said, ask questions and take it from there. If you're making a statement about something, then post a link too, so that it can be discussed.

Giz a bottle of broon wiv them crisps man! Not to be pedantic or anything but no one seemed to look at that Clayton dudes links and before I had 15 posts I couldn't post a link I am only just in that region now LOL

 

[Straw Man]

Giz a bottle of broon wiv them crisps man! Not to be pedantic or anything but no one seemed to look at that Clayton dudes links and before I had 15 posts I couldn't post a link I am only just in that region now LOL

Clayton's links do get looked at, and normally the links come from a less than reputable source. It's normally an uneducated opinion or a sensationalist editorial.

Ok i may have only looked at one side of the debate before coming to this forum, you can take that as a given.

Lots of people do. You're not unusual. Trust me Both sides are looked at by the majority of posters.

My mother who recently passed away was in very poor health most of her life. She was with other mothers and people of the time given many various drugs for various aliments during the 50's to the 80's. This was the cause of her ill health. People were pretty much used as unwilling lab rats back then.

I can understand the personal feelings, but this thread is to do with vaccinations and autism.

Allot of these if not all of these drugs were not clinically tested correctly if at all and caused most of her health problems. One drug she was given to take the Brest milk away after I was born caused her to have thrombosis which nearly killed her. Another drug which was given for depression at the time was ativan. She was told it was not addictive. It turned out to be highly addictive and to cause convulsions in later life.

A story for another thread, but not for this one. I'm not being hard marra, it's about the thread being on topic.

I don't trust medical science and for a very good and personal reason. So if I only looked at one side of the vaccine debate I hope you now understand why.

Vaccinations and autism are the place to be in this thread. The stuff you have with your Mam are for somewhere else, but if you feel you have a contribution to make to this particular thread, then please go for it.

 

[TSR]

For a quick overview on vaccines, you can try this. As with any reference to Wiki, follow the links to the primary sources. Pretty much everything you had to say about vaccines was wrong, but let's reset with some *real* data. If you read something you disagree with, bring it back here ***with your own source for that disagreement*** and we can talk about it. If you read something you don't quite get, ask.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Calm down, bonny lad, and I'll give you a canny bag of crisps.

I understand that you're here to learn, and that we can be a little brusque sometimes, but when you're a new blood and getting in the swing of things. As has been said, ask questions and take it from there. If you're making a statement about something, then post a link too, so that it can be discussed.

Note the WE. They have an agenda. All the up front and personal harm to our precious children means nothing to them.

How clear can things be? Foreign substances are put in tiny baby's bodies over and over and over. It isn't exposure to a disease it's manipulating/accelerating an immature immune system of a tiny person who can't communicate distress any way but crying or passing out.

Impurities, not disease, are put into babies bodies to stimulate the immune system into recognizing an "attacking virus", dead or weakened because the immune system freaking KNOWS the "attacking virus" is not a threat.

So the "vaccine" is more making the immune system deal with non virus foreign substances than the disease/immunity event impression people have of vaccines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjuvant

Immunologic adjuvants
Main article: Immunologic adjuvant

Immunologic adjuvants are added to vaccines to stimulate the immune system's response to the target antigen, but do not in themselves confer immunity. Adjuvants can act in various ways in presenting an antigen to the immune system. Adjuvants can act as a depot for the antigen, presenting the antigen over a long period of time, thus maximizing the immune response before the body clears the antigen. Examples of depot type adjuvants are oil emulsions. Adjuvants can also act as an irritant which causes the body to recruit and amplify its immune response.[3] A tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis vaccine, for example, contains minute quantities of toxins produced by each of the target bacteria, but also contains some aluminium hydroxide.[4] Such aluminium salts are common adjuvants in vaccines sold in the United States and have been used in vaccines for over 70 years.[5] The body's immune system develops an antitoxin to the bacteria's toxins, not to the aluminium, but would not respond enough without the help of the aluminium adjuvant.

One the thread's vax loving posters actually said that adjuvants were not used in US vaccines.

robcasey google vaccine impurities and you'll get an eyeful.

The WE here have difficulty with whistleblower sites because they have a lot of nonsense on them.



http://www.cancer.net.nz/Vioxx_warning_letter_vaccine_impurities.html

 

[TSR]

Note the WE. They have an agenda. All the up front and personal harm to our precious children means nothing to them.

Rob, you were speaking of personal attacks?

How clear can things be? Foreign substances are put in tiny baby's bodies over and over and over. It isn't exposure to a disease it's manipulating/accelerating an immature immune system of a tiny person who can't communicate distress any way but crying or passing out.

The first thing you've gotten almost right in this thread.

Yes, vaccines accelerate those little people becoming immune to sometimes deadly, disfiguring and disabling diseases without the dangers of actually *getting* those diseases first.

Are they 100% effective? No.

Are they 100% safe for all children? No.

Are these issues worse than, say, being crippled by polio, or spending your life in an iron lung?



No.

Impurities, not disease, are put into babies bodies to stimulate the immune system into recognizing an "attacking virus", dead or weakened because the immune system freaking KNOWS the "attacking virus" is not a threat.

But the real virus *is* a threat, and one that is reduced by immunzations.

Rob -- ask CM if he thinks polio was a good thing to have.

He refuses to answer any of us that don't buy into his crap about autism when he tries to distract from his complete inability to credibly source it by expanding the discussion to all vaccines.

So the "vaccine" is more making the immune system deal with non virus foreign substances than the disease/immunity event impression people have of vaccines.

Of course, that's not how adjuvants work, but then this is a person who thinks that vaccines end up in the GI tract...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjuvant


One the thread's vax loving posters actually said that adjuvants were not used in US vaccines.

And the one you were whining about at the time isn't.

robcasey google vaccine impurities and you'll get an eyeful.

Just remember to look for the primary sources...

The WE here have difficulty with whistleblower sites because they have a lot of nonsense on them.

And this is somehow a *bad* thing?

http://www.cancer.net.nz/Vioxx_warning_letter_vaccine_impurities.html

Could you please make up what passes for your mind about whether non-US sources are acceptable or not?

Rob: please note on that page, there are no sources. We are just supposed to take that person and CM at their word.

Now, back up to the home page and tell me if you this person credible.

 

[Straw Man]

Note the WE. They have an agenda. All the up front and personal harm to our precious children means nothing to them.

When I say 'we', I do include you.

I'm not even going to ask about your precious children.I'll assume not born this century.

How clear can things be? Foreign substances are put in tiny baby's bodies over and over and over. It isn't exposure to a disease it's manipulating/accelerating an immature immune system of a tiny person who can't communicate distress any way but crying or passing out.

As opposed to those pesky viruses. They do nothing at all. No, wait, isn't there a raft of questions unanswered by you to questions you put out there?

Impurities, not disease, are put into babies bodies to stimulate the immune system into recognizing an "attacking virus", dead or weakened because the immune system freaking KNOWS the "attacking virus" is not a threat.

Evidence, Clay, or you are not saying anything. Are you stating that the unvaccinated child is prepared for the unknown attacking virus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjuvant[/url]

Yes.

One the thread's vax loving posters actually said that adjuvants were not used in US vaccines.

Do you remember what was said?

robcasey google vaccine impurities and you'll get an eyeful.

An eyeful of woo, that I do encourage you to do further research on. Some anto-vaxxers find themselves being tripped up due to not reading what they post.

The WE have WOO thrust upon them.

http://www.cancer.net.nz/Vioxx_warning_letter_vaccine_impurities.html

Woomeisters who demand you listen to the past, yet demand you give them an answer from the present, and also tell you that the medical profession is hiding this.

Just where do these letters come from?

ETA: ^^^^^^^^TSR knows her stuff!

 

[pakeha]

Wouldn't there have been illness "outbreaks" in Jewish communities that practiced Chavruta over the years/decades/4 scores/centuries. The Jewish people, after germs were discovered, wouldn't have figured out the close quartered activity was causing the outbreaks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavruta

Right.
Like sparring partners in boxing, I suppose.
What do the studies tell us?

 

[000063]

Dr. Andrew Wakefield reveals real story behind vaccines, autism and more

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/035513_Andrew_Wakefield_vaccines_autism.html#ixzz2CCYumhhI




Research Brian Deer, Wakefield's accuser.

He's just Andrew Wakefield. Lost his medical license. Good job researching.

Japan



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy#Wakefield_Lancet_paper_controversy

Ah, yes, the "quote Wikipedia articles without explaining their relevance" stage of the discussion.

Wouldn't there have been illness "outbreaks" in Jewish communities that practiced Chavruta over the years/decades/4 scores/centuries. The Jewish people, after germs were discovered, wouldn't have figured out the close quartered activity was causing the outbreaks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavruta

Argument from Incredulity.

Note the WE. They have an agenda. All the up front and personal harm to our precious children means nothing to them.....

The ironic thing is that many of us are opposed to anti-vaxxers because we believe not having vaccines causes harm to children, and have explicitly said so over and over. In fact, someone recently showed you their perfectly healthy kid who'd had his shots, and you decried him for using his kid to make a rhetorical point.

Seems a tad hypocritical.

 

[dafydd]

Ok i may have only looked at one side of the debate before coming to this forum, you can take that as a given.

My mother who recently passed away was in very poor health most of her life. She was with other mothers and people of the time given many various drugs for various aliments during the 50's to the 80's. This was the cause of her ill health. People were pretty much used as unwilling lab rats back then.

Allot of these if not all of these drugs were not clinically tested correctly if at all and caused most of her health problems. One drug she was given to take the Brest milk away after I was born caused her to have thrombosis which nearly killed her. Another drug which was given for depression at the time was ativan. She was told it was not addictive. It turned out to be highly addictive and to cause convulsions in later life.

I don't trust medical science and for a very good and personal reason. So if I only looked at one side of the vaccine debate I hope you now understand why.

Milk from the town of Brest in France?

 

[robcasey]

Okeyyyy!!! Didn't go to bed last night until 4.30 in the morning. Why? Well I couldn't leave this alone.

After sifting through allot of data, and lots of coffee(brain is going to explode) I Have made a few discoveries. There are allot of doctors and scientists that have took a stance against vaccinations. I have yet to find one (doctor or scientist) that has took this stance that has not been ridiculed attacked career destroyed the story seems to repeat this pattern.

I have looked in all major and allot of minor search engines and can not find one proponent of vaccine skepticism that has not come under scrutiny or attack.

How is it that they were doing really well for themselves then they started sighting there may be dangers associated with vaccines then all their careers take a nose dive (public media medical scrutiny law suits being struck off over and over again)
So please if anyone has a link where some doctor or researcher hasn't been branded a heretic please provide it for me.

Is mercury safe for human consumption?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0RLmb8EULc

25 Member Advisory Panel Rejects FDA Safety Report on Mercury Fillings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WujHCWE-hOc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh_yb80KH6Y&feature=watch_response

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element)

Mercury is a chemical element with the symbol Hg and atomic number 80. It is also known as quicksilver or hydrargyrum ( < Greek "hydr-" water and "argyros" silver). A heavy, silvery d-block element, mercury is the only metal that is liquid at standard conditions for temperature and pressure; the only other element that is liquid under these conditions is bromine, though metals such as caesium, gallium, and rubidium melt just above room temperature. With a freezing point of −38.83 °C and boiling point of 356.73 °C, mercury has one of the narrowest ranges of its liquid state of any metal.[2][3][4]I

Mercury occurs in deposits throughout the world mostly as cinnabar (mercuric sulfide). The red pigment vermilion is mostly obtained by reduction from cinnabar. Cinnabar is highly toxic by ingestion or inhalation of the dust. Mercury poisoning can also result from exposure to water-soluble forms of mercury (such as mercuric chloride or methylmercury), inhalation of mercury vapor, or eating seafood contaminated with mercury.

Mercury is used in thermometers, barometers, manometers, sphygmomanometers, float valves, mercury switches, and other devices though concerns about the element's toxicity have led to mercury thermometers and sphygmomanometers being largely phased out in clinical environments in favor of alcohol-filled, galinstan-filled, digital, or thermistor-based instruments. It remains in use in scientific research applications and in amalgam material for dental restoration. It is used in lighting: electricity passed through mercury vapor in a fluorescent lamp produces short-wave ultraviolet light which then causes the phosphor in the tube to fluoresce, making visible light.

 

[robcasey]

Milk from the town of Brest in France?

Is there really any need to be like this? Ok FYI i am dislexic and it was late so i did not bother to check my spellings before posting SO WHATS THE BIG DEAL????

 

[000063]

Okeyyyy!!! Didn't go to bed last night until 4.30 in the morning. Why? Well I couldn't leave this alone.

After sifting through allot of data, and lots of coffee(brain is going to explode) I Have made a few discoveries. There are allot of doctors and scientists that have took a stance against vaccinations. I have yet to find one (doctor or scientist) that has took this stance that has not been ridiculed attacked career destroyed the story seems to repeat this pattern.

I have looked in all major and allot of minor search engines and can not find one proponent of vaccine skepticism that has not come under scrutiny or attack.

How is it that they were doing really well for themselves then they started sighting there may be dangers associated with vaccines then all their careers take a nose dive (public media medical scrutiny law suits being struck off over and over again)
So please if anyone has a link where some doctor or researcher hasn't been branded a heretic please provide it for me.

...

This is because anti-vaxx positions are, basically, nonsense. Is there a risk associated with vaccines? Yep. Is it higher than actually getting the disease? Nope. Does it cause autism? There is no evidence to support it and ample evidence against it. The persecution anti-vaxxers have suffered is not materially relevant to whether they're right.

 

[dafydd]

Mercury is a chemical element with the symbol Hg and atomic number 80. It is also known as quicksilver or hydrargyrum ( < Greek "hydr-" water and "argyros" silver). A heavy, silvery d-block element, mercury is the only metal that is liquid at standard conditions for temperature and pressure; the only other element that is liquid under these conditions is bromine, though metals such as caesium, gallium, and rubidium melt just above room temperature. With a freezing point of −38.83 °C and boiling point of 356.73 °C, mercury has one of the narrowest ranges of its liquid state of any metal.[2][3][4]I

Mercury occurs in deposits throughout the world mostly as cinnabar (mercuric sulfide). The red pigment vermilion is mostly obtained by reduction from cinnabar. Cinnabar is highly toxic by ingestion or inhalation of the dust. Mercury poisoning can also result from exposure to water-soluble forms of mercury (such as mercuric chloride or methylmercury), inhalation of mercury vapor, or eating seafood contaminated with mercury.

Mercury is used in thermometers, barometers, manometers, sphygmomanometers, float valves, mercury switches, and other devices though concerns about the element's toxicity have led to mercury thermometers and sphygmomanometers being largely phased out in clinical environments in favor of alcohol-filled, galinstan-filled, digital, or thermistor-based instruments. It remains in use in scientific research applications and in amalgam material for dental restoration. It is used in lighting: electricity passed through mercury vapor in a fluorescent lamp produces short-wave ultraviolet light which then causes the phosphor in the tube to fluoresce, making visible light.

I learned that in school, what does it have to do with vaccination?

 

[robcasey]

This is because anti-vaxx positions are, basically, nonsense. Is there a risk associated with vaccines? Yep. Is it higher than actually getting the disease? Nope. Does it cause autism? There is no evidence to support it and ample evidence against it. The persecution anti-vaxxers have suffered is not materially relevant to whether they're rightQUOTE]

But it does make it damm difficult for them to prove themselves right, and it lets everyone else know what will happen if you question authority!

 

[robcasey]

I learned that in school, what does it have to do with vaccination?

Mercury is in vaccinations!

 

[dafydd]

But it does make it damm difficult for them to prove themselves right, and it lets everyone else know what will happen if you question authority!

Not much, unless you break the law.

 

[dafydd]

Mercury is in vaccinations!

Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative used in some vaccines and other products since the 1930's. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of Thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. They don't inject large amounts of pure mercury. If you can link to a peer reviewed study of the deleterious effects of Thimerosal in vaccinations, please feel free to do so.