Were The OTIS Fighters Diverted?

FrankHT said:
There's no doubt that the Otis fighters were originally directed towards the NYC area. That's on that's NORAD tapes channel 2. You claim the diversion was for the FAA to clear the air space. Can you tell me exactly when the FAA did this and gave the pilots clearance? Source it please. You wont be able to because the FAA didn't. The pilots took the initiative and did it on their own telling the FAA & NEADS they NEEDED (were going to go with or without clearance) to go to NY. Why? Because they saw (from within their holding pattern) 175 strike WTC 2.
You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?
You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
Click to expand...

Frank, why don't you get that your whole theory is completely pointless and irrelevant? It would not have mattered if the Air Force had parked a squadron of F-15's over Manhattan since dawn. What were the orders in a hijacking up to 9/11? To immediately shoot down any suspect aircraft over highly populated areas? I don't think so. Fighters (having of course found it first) would "follow an aircraft that was confirmed to be hijacked in order to assure positive flight following, report unusual observances, and aid search and rescue in the event of an emergency."

You entire alleged diversion is completely unnecessary and pointless. It does not matter where the fighters were, they could and would have done nothing to stop what happened in New York that day.
 
Have you guys noticed or discussed Paul Schreyer? A German Truther, I think, who lately has received some attention in the circles that I have on my radar:

A paper at the "Journal of 9/11 Stundies": Anomalies of the air defense on 9/11
On youtube: Inside 9/11 - Who diverted the fighter jets?
Discussed at 911Blogger: New Video: Inside 9/11 - Who diverted the fighter jets?

He speculates that the few minutes mismatch between Colin's call "AA11 is 20 miles south of Albany" and the actual location 80 miles south of Aalbany could mean that the entire time track of Otis fighterscould be placed a few minutes earlier, such that it would have been possible for them to reach UA175 in time to take a peak into the cockpit (Schreyer doesn't claim there was a chance to shoot down, but a chance to identify the crew, which, he insinuates, isn't known for certain).
 
Oystein said:
Have you guys noticed or discussed Paul Schreyer? A German Truther, I think, who lately has received some attention in the circles that I have on my radar:

A paper at the "Journal of 9/11 Stundies": Anomalies of the air defense on 9/11
On youtube: Inside 9/11 - Who diverted the fighter jets?
Discussed at 911Blogger: New Video: Inside 9/11 - Who diverted the fighter jets?

He speculates that the few minutes mismatch between Colin's call "AA11 is 20 miles south of Albany" and the actual location 80 miles south of Aalbany could mean that the entire time track of Otis fighterscould be placed a few minutes earlier, such that it would have been possible for them to reach UA175 in time to take a peak into the cockpit (Schreyer doesn't claim there was a chance to shoot down, but a chance to identify the crew, which, he insinuates, isn't known for certain).
Click to expand...

If Colin was to tell me for a fact that the plane was 100% without a doubt 20 miles south of Albany when he called NEADS, it would still not matter. Although I greatly respect and admire Colin, there is an indisputable and absolute record of everything that happened from multiple sources. The timeline of events is known down to a margin of a few seconds error and to overcome it would require substantial and objective evidence. To date, I have seen none.
 
BCR said:
If Colin was to tell me for a fact that the plane was 100% without a doubt 20 miles south of Albany when he called NEADS, it would still not matter. Although I greatly respect and admire Colin, there is an indisputable and absolute record of everything that happened from multiple sources. The timeline of events is known down to a margin of a few seconds error and to overcome it would require substantial and objective evidence. To date, I have seen none.
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

Picking one data point, which is an oral report of a human being in a highly stressful situation, declaring that as gold standard and absolutely true, and then massaging all the other evidence, much of it more objective as no human interaction is involved, to fit that one outlier, is quote mining in the very extreme.
 
FrankHT said:
There's no doubt that the Otis fighters were originally directed towards the NYC area. That's on that's NORAD tapes channel 2. You claim the diversion was for the FAA to clear the air space. Can you tell me exactly when the FAA did this and gave the pilots clearance? Source it please. You wont be able to because the FAA didn't. The pilots took the initiative and did it on their own telling the FAA & NEADS they NEEDED (were going to go with or without clearance) to go to NY. Why? Because they saw (from within their holding pattern) 175 strike WTC 2.
You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?
You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
Click to expand...
Liars, you make up fantasy then have to blame everyone for your crazy claims.

NORAD has no authority to send planes into FAA airspace. NORAD does not own the airspace. You don't do flying, you do fantasy, poorly.
 
FrankHT said:
You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?
You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
Click to expand...

Since you've brought this up a number of times let's have a quick look at the numbers.

Otis AB is about 190 miles from the WTC. If the fighters were to take 12 minutes to cover that distance their average speed would be 950 mph or about mach 1.3. Since they're starting from 0mph, accelerating and climbing to altitude their maximum speed on the trip would have to exceed mach 1.3 and since that's higher than the max. sea level speed of a clean aircraft, let alone one with external fuel tanks and missiles, we can safely say that an F-15 can't possibly cover the distance from Otis to the WTC in 12 minutes from a standing start.
 
Were the Otis fighters armed? I was given to understand they weren't, which would make sense.
 
Loss Leader said:
Were the Otis fighters armed? I was given to understand they weren't, which would make sense.
Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't make sense as they were on Air Defense Alert. All fighters on Alert are fully armed and ready to go. Those that aren't on alert may or may not be armed. Most likely not, but in some cases they will have their cannon loaded. It would be unusual if they were ever loaded with missiles if not on alert...
 
FrankHT said:
There's no doubt that the Otis fighters were originally directed towards the NYC area. That's on that's NORAD tapes channel 2. You claim the diversion was for the FAA to clear the air space.

Can you tell me exactly when the FAA did this and gave the pilots clearance? Source it please. You wont be able to because the FAA didn't.

The pilots took the initiative and did it on their own telling the FAA & NEADS they NEEDED (were going to go with or without clearance) to go to NY.

Why? Because they saw (from within their holding pattern) 175 strike WTC 2.

You claim the Otis fighters could not have made it to NYC in time to stop Flight 175,but this is simply wrong. By the Military's own admission the flight time for an F15 from Otis to NYC is 10-12 minutes. They were scrambled at 8:52 and flew from TAKE OFF "Full blower all the way","Supersonic"[Quotes-Col. Duffy].8:52 to 9:03 (time WTC 2 was hit)=11 minutes! yet the Commission claims they still 100 miles out from NYC at 9:03 ! They barely moved ! How do explain that?

You can pick your poison,but there's a problem here. Either the pilots are lying or the scramble didn't happen at the time we were told or the holding pattern came before 9:03. Either way the official story is false.
Click to expand...

Frank, why do you continue to try to prove that you have no knowledge about aviation, especially military aviation? We already know this from your previous posts

I have separated your post into different sections to make it easier to respond to.

Let’s see, takeoff on runway 05, climb to assigned altitude, turn right to enter W-105, turn to a westerly heading, fly south of the Long Island coast toward NYC. How much more direct would you like to go? Unless you don’t mind clobbering a commercial airliner that is going 4 times slower than you.

Didn’t the FAA call Otis? If they did, wouldn’t you expect that they would know that the Otis jets would be showing up on their radar screens shortly? Boston Center is informed of the scramble protocol at Otis, including the transponder codes they would be using during a military operation.

There is a big difference between needing to get to NYC, and going there with or without a clearance. Do you really believe that two Air Force staff officers were going to jeopardize their military careers by breaking FAA regulations?

So you think that the Otis pilots actually seen Flight 175 hit the south tower, from a hundred miles out? That’s BS, and you know it.

Could the Otis jets have made it to NYC before Flt. 175 struck the south tower? The answer is no, and you have been told this several times by several members. Prove that we are wrong, and show your work.
 
Couple of nitpicks:

fess said:
Unless you don’t mind clobbering a commercial airliner that is going 4 times slower than you.
Click to expand...
I think you exaggerate. 4 times faster may be top speed those fighters might attain, but even going supersonic with afterburner, they'd be unlikely to go 2 times faster than the airliners.

fess said:
So you think that the Otis pilots actually seen Flight 175 hit the south tower, from a hundred miles out? That’s BS, and you know it.
Click to expand...
Pilot Duffy has related how they did indeed have a pretty clear view of Manhattan and the burning North Tower from their position in the holding pattern, 70 miles out. It was, after all, a brilliant, sunny day, and they were pretty high up. Visibility was excellent. I think he said he did not, as a matter of fact, see the impact (fireball) of UA175, but they conceivably could have.
 
Again, I find myself baffled by the point of this thread (like so many others began by the TM).
What difference would it have made if the AF fighters were 70 miles out or doing barrel rolls in front of the airliners?
As far as I know, no AF fighter has ever downed a civilian airliner over US airspace. Assuming they were even armed, what would it matter? I cannot conceive of a military commander giving the order to fire, especially over a densely populated area, and I really have a problem believing that a pilot would obey the order if given.
Am I, once again, missing something?:confused:
 
Chuck Guiteau said:
Am I, once again, missing something?:confused:
Click to expand...

You're missing a "truthers" 20/20 hindsight. These pilots had to know the US was under attack and they could do whatever they wanted. They had to know where all the hijacked planes were (and how many). Screw the rules, we're saving the world. ;)

ETA: In case you didn't know. If you shoot down a plane, it disappears and you advance to the next level. :D
 
Last edited:
Chuck, the most that you might miss is something that Paul Schreyer, that at least doesn't fly directly into the face of reason: One thing that these military pilots can do, and occasionally do, when they intercept civilian planes in various kinds of incidents is to look into the cockpit and try and find clues as to what's happening. This way, for example, it was determined that the flight crew of ... what was that pro golfer's name ... this pro-golfer's pribate jet were unconscious in their seats (air pressure had suddenly dropped), and that's why the plane just went straight on and no one responded to anything. So they escorted that plane till it ran out of fuel, and might have considered a shoot-down if it had threatened to crash into a city. Which it didn't.

So if a truther wants to claim that it wasn't the named 19 AQ terrorists that steered these planes, but urrrrrr Mossad agents instead, or autopilot, then diverting the fighters would have helped to cover that up.

Sure, it's as mad a scenario as anything else, but at least it makes more sense internally.
 
Oystein said:
Couple of nitpicks:


I think you exaggerate. 4 times faster may be top speed those fighters might attain, but even going supersonic with afterburner, they'd be unlikely to go 2 times faster than the airliners.


Pilot Duffy has related how they did indeed have a pretty clear view of Manhattan and the burning North Tower from their position in the holding pattern, 70 miles out. It was, after all, a brilliant, sunny day, and they were pretty high up. Visibility was excellent. I think he said he did not, as a matter of fact, see the impact (fireball) of UA175, but they conceivably could have.
Click to expand...

Hey, if FrankHT can exaggerate, so can I.:D

However, any aircraft (commercial) landing in NYC, this close to their destination, would not be cruising along at .82. And if they were below 10,000 feet, they wouldn’t be over 250knts.

Being able to see NYC from 70 miles out, at altitude, with a huge amount of smoke in the air, is one thing. Being able to spot a 757/767 at 70 miles is another. FrankHT stated that the Otis pilots watched Flt. 175 hit the south tower. In order to keep my yellow flags at a minimum, I will just say I believe this to be highly improbable.
 
fess said:
Hey, if FrankHT can exaggerate, so can I.:D

However, any aircraft (commercial) landing in NYC, this close to their destination, would not be cruising along at .82. And if they were below 10,000 feet, they wouldn’t be over 250knts.
Click to expand...
Considerations only valid for responsible airline pilots trying to obey by the rules - aberrant, rogue aircraft can do what they want, which includes speeding.

fess said:
Being able to see NYC from 70 miles out, at altitude, with a huge amount of smoke in the air, is one thing. Being able to spot a 757/767 at 70 miles is another. FrankHT stated that the Otis pilots watched Flt. 175 hit the south tower. In order to keep my yellow flags at a minimum, I will just say I believe this to be highly improbable.
Click to expand...
That is certainly correct. The plane was much smaller, and had much less contrast against background, than the fireball and smoke trails they produced. That's why I specifically mentioned the fireball when I said "he did not, as a matter of fact, see the impact (fireball)".

I haven't actually read FrankH's posts, so I don't know why he would have brought that issue up, and whether he meant "see plane just before impact" or "see firework effects from impact".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom