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Honor killing in Pakistan

Yes, people don't kill each other willy-nilly. They have reasons for it. For example, the destruction of the honour system which forms the basis of their society.

It's very easy for two people to be civil to each other when they aren't competing for something.
The vast majority of humans on the planet could not murder someone without serious moral implications. You seem to be talking past me with this, "yes but under X circumstances people can kill." Yes, but that isn't the point. The point is, most people would need to cross a very high threshold in order to kill. Be that brainwashing of child soldiers or of a culture, in both cases it is not a natural human state.
 
If you mean that a group of people who want to improve the lives of people in Afghanistan, they qualify.



How about "actions often have unintended consequences"?

Granted. However, this doesn't excuse us from at least trying.
 
I think it would be interesting to know why these volunteers decided to support the Taliban. You can't solve a problem until you understand it.


ETA: Anybody know if Antique Hunter is still around? I think he worked for a NGO in Afghanistan, it would be interesting to read his take on things.

Hello all,

Yes, I lived & worked for nearly 8 years in Afghanistan. Not with an NGO but as a consultant/advisor embedded in the Afghan government, supporting a large ministry. That said, naturally I met, worked alongside & socialized with lots of NGO types.

On this specific point - I would be curious to know specifically who the large body of volunteers who 'support the Taliban' are. From two perspectives:

1) How do we define 'The Taliban'? These people don't carry around ID cards. After so many years there, I still struggle with this. Is 'The Taliban' someone connected to Al Qaeda? Is 'The Taliban' a Sunni muslim fundamentalist? Is 'The Taliban' someone who is aligned with a certain warlord/faction? Is someone who supports Ismail Khan 'The Taliban'? What about someone who supports Dostum?

2) These alleged volunteers - did they come to the region to do Aid work for a typical NGO (Save the Children, World Vision, etc...) and then somehow decide 'the Taliban' (such as they defined it) had the right idea and switch sides? Have they come to the region specifically to aid and abet 'the Taliban' agenda? I need to know a little more about what kinds of people we are talking about, and their motives. There are definitely some aid workers with some strange ideas, but I honestly can state I never met someone who I thought was working to DIRECTLY SUPPORT a terrorist movement.
 
Separate from, but related to, the problem of honor killing in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan and other areas of the Middle East, is that of honor killing exported into more enlightened nations, such as the United States. It would appear that many of those leaving the near east think they have the right to impose their views in our country. They need to be firmly disabused of this notion as a condition of their being allowed to enter our country and enjoy its benefits. Any failure on their part to do so, such as physical abuse, should be grounds for two things: first, the removal of their children from their control. Second,their permanent removal from the United States - minus their children.
 
If the Taliban are considered saviours, I can't even begin to imagine what the warlords were like.

I am new to this thread & am just catching up.

I can comment directly on this - there is an incredible number of young people (a growing number by the time I left) who would welcome a return of 'The Taliban' to power. As described to me by a number of young Afghan men whom I had hired (and paid well) to be translators or technical members of my team, while 'some bad things' happened under the Taliban, at least they 'knew where we stood'. And the Taliban supported their religion. They see the West as a negative influence (all this said while enjoying their cellphone, internet porn, bluejeans & salary paid by the Western world).

In a nutshell, if you are a devout muslim, the fact that you may not be able to listen to music, have to grow a beard, and live in what we would consider a repressive society - this is not seen as a negative. Indeed, it is seen as a positive alternative to what has evolved in Afghanistan between 2002-2012.

These are young Afghan men, most of whom were raised in Pakistan by middle-class families during the bulk of the fighting, and have some level of schooling (albeit at a Pakistani institution). They are literate & multi-lingual.

It will be interesting to see if my Afghan colleagues have this same opinion when their $2500 a month dries up.
 
On the topic of the OP:

I don't believe anyone would say that Honor Murders are 'OK'. Indeed, in Afghanistan, if you kill your daughter for reasons of honor, you will go to jail. 'Honor' is not a legal excuse.

So the question becomes - how do we stop honor murders? My perspective is that I'm not sure we can. We can't, afterall, stop 'murder' in its broader sense - and an honor murder is simply one excuse among many of why people kill other people. Sure - it is a particularly horrific and heinous excuse, but is it any worse than the murder in a crime of passion, or a psycho/sexual killer's murder? Its murder, full-stop.

Where the West should be intervening is on the legal side. What is appalling in all of this, is that judges (which are an inept, corrupt, aid-sinkhole in Afghanistan) often will not treat an honor killing with the same severity as another instance of murder. Likewise, many of these crimes go under-reported or mis-reported. It doesn't take much abstract thought to read between the lines when one hears a young woman was discovered electrocuted in the bathtub because the hair-dryer fell in. (This was a rather common occurence in Afghanistan - I think I read 3 publicized reports of this 'accidental' death during my time there.)

So rather than looking for ways to stop honor killing itself, IF the West is going to get involved at all, then I would suggest the cultural change is probably something we will never gain traction against - at least that sort of cultural change takes generations. We COULD fix the legal system as a tangible result.

However, I suspect that as Afghanistan loses its aid-draw, and the 'pullout' starts to take place (it will never be a complete withdrawal) honor killing, and many other examples of crimes against women will be the first area where the small inroads we have made, are all undone.

When we pull out the troops, we should pull out the media. Because the pictures will be very bleak indeed.
 
Thanks for taking the time to comment AH. It's hard for me to respond to your posts though because I just don't have enough background knowledge to fully understand them.

I'll take a stab at asking a couple of questions anyway though. :)

I am new to this thread & am just catching up.

I can comment directly on this - there is an incredible number of young people (a growing number by the time I left) who would welcome a return of 'The Taliban' to power. As described to me by a number of young Afghan men whom I had hired (and paid well) to be translators or technical members of my team, while 'some bad things' happened under the Taliban, at least they 'knew where we stood'. And the Taliban supported their religion. They see the West as a negative influence (all this said while enjoying their cellphone, internet porn, bluejeans & salary paid by the Western world).

In a nutshell, if you are a devout muslim, the fact that you may not be able to listen to music, have to grow a beard, and live in what we would consider a repressive society - this is not seen as a negative. Indeed, it is seen as a positive alternative to what has evolved in Afghanistan between 2002-2012.

OK -- dumb question. Is what happened between 2002 - 2012 worse than what most Afghanis experienced when their country was under Russian influence? Has weakening the Taliban strengthened leaders who are even worse than the Taliban as opposed to strengthening leaders who are less cruel and perhaps more inclined to running things in a more democratic manner? :confused:

These are young Afghan men, most of whom were raised in Pakistan by middle-class families during the bulk of the fighting, and have some level of schooling (albeit at a Pakistani institution). They are literate & multi-lingual.

It will be interesting to see if my Afghan colleagues have this same opinion when their $2500 a month dries up.
When do you expect that will happen for most of them?



On the topic of the OP:

I don't believe anyone would say that Honor Murders are 'OK'. Indeed, in Afghanistan, if you kill your daughter for reasons of honor, you will go to jail. 'Honor' is not a legal excuse.

So the question becomes - how do we stop honor murders? My perspective is that I'm not sure we can. We can't, afterall, stop 'murder' in its broader sense - and an honor murder is simply one excuse among many of why people kill other people. Sure - it is a particularly horrific and heinous excuse, but is it any worse than the murder in a crime of passion, or a psycho/sexual killer's murder? Its murder, full-stop.

Where the West should be intervening is on the legal side. What is appalling in all of this, is that judges (which are an inept, corrupt, aid-sinkhole in Afghanistan) often will not treat an honor killing with the same severity as another instance of murder. Likewise, many of these crimes go under-reported or mis-reported. It doesn't take much abstract thought to read between the lines when one hears a young woman was discovered electrocuted in the bathtub because the hair-dryer fell in. (This was a rather common occurence in Afghanistan - I think I read 3 publicized reports of this 'accidental' death during my time there.)

So, how did Afghanistan end up with laws on the books that say that honor killings are illegal despite the fact that it appear to be OK with the their patriarchal/tribal power structure? Is this a legacy from the Russians?

So rather than looking for ways to stop honor killing itself, IF the West is going to get involved at all, then I would suggest the cultural change is probably something we will never gain traction against - at least that sort of cultural change takes generations. We COULD fix the legal system as a tangible result.

However, I suspect that as Afghanistan loses its aid-draw, and the 'pullout' starts to take place (it will never be a complete withdrawal)

Why not? Because of proposed oil pipeline projects?

As for fixing the legal system ... that is probably equivalent to nation building and I wonder if that would work in the Middle East. It did work for Japan after WWII, but I believe that Japan was hated and feared by most other Asian countries which is probably one of the reasons that the Americans were able to do this. I don't think the same dynamics are in place in the Middle East. Also, I think the US was willing to do a lot of expensive nation building after WWII to help prevent a future WWIII. I'm doubtful that the same degree of nation building would have support from American citizens now or from any other democratic/republican country's citizens. So who would do it? I also cheerfully admit that I'm doing a lot of speculating in ignorance in this post.

honor killing, and many other examples of crimes against women will be the first area where the small inroads we have made, are all undone.
Is there anyway to help the women directly?

An anecdote for what its worth. My family background is Orthodox Jewish. One of my great-grandfathers was basically a tyrant and he insisted that all of his sons be married by 16 years of age and his daughters by 12. (He had a dozen children.) He succeeded in forcing his oldest son and daughter into marriage. The rest of his children ran away. Unfortunately for the tyrant but fortunately for his other children the big city was not that far away and they were able to get jobs, the daughters as well as the sons. Their options broke his tyranny. Incidentally, none of the 10 run-aways stayed orthodox, probably not a coincidence.

I think if the Afghani women were able to have true options that this problem could be done away with within two, perhaps even one generation. To take my mother's aunts and uncles as an example though, they were never under house arrest and while they were threatened with forced marriages, they were never threatened with death or even acid attacks or facial amputations.

I'm just wondering if there is a way to offer Afghani women true help in that type of extremely hostile and dangerous environment.

When we pull out the troops, we should pull out the media. Because the pictures will be very bleak indeed.

:(
 
Thanks for taking the time to comment AH. It's hard for me to respond to your posts though because I just don't have enough background knowledge to fully understand them.

I'll take a stab at asking a couple of questions anyway though. :)



OK -- dumb question. Is what happened between 2002 - 2012 worse than what most Afghanis experienced when their country was under Russian influence? Has weakening the Taliban strengthened leaders who are even worse than the Taliban as opposed to strengthening leaders who are less cruel and perhaps more inclined to running things in a more democratic manner? :confused:

What I'm driving at is the hypocracy of things. Materially, these Afghan's lives have improved - they embrace aspects of 'Westernization' (particularly the internet porn part.) They embrace the ability to get a salary beyond the wildest dreams of most Afghans - schoolteachers received $165 USD a month when I left. But while they're gazing at porn & enjoying comforts that a reasonable salary allows, they will still say 'the lives of Afghans haven't improved since the West got involved'. They will still say 'I liked it when the Taliban was in control because it was safe, and they respected Islam.'

The reality is that outside of Kabul & major centers (Jbad, Herat, Kandahar, Mazar etc...), the West hasn't been able to improve the lives of the average Afghan very much, if at all. Afghans don't connect (semi)democratic elections with any sort of a 'win'. They want to see running water, sewage, schools, hospitals, roads, a live outside of subsistence agriculture. Or perhaps for many of these remote Afghans, really they just want to carry on with their simple existences and be left alone.

When do you expect that will happen for most of them?

Hard to say. The peak of aid spending in Afghanistan has definitely been reached. Unlike other post-conflict places I've been (East Timor for example), I think there is some caution about pulling the pin too soon. Because if this fragile middle-class where there is at least SOME progress collapses, they will likely become extremely disenfranchised.

My personal opinion is that any US politician who tells you they are 'pulling out' of Afghanistan is lying. The infrastructure built there is clearly built with a long-term view. Kandahar and what has been put in place there is staying - and the US/NATO will patrol Central Asia from that location for years to come - no question.

So, how did Afghanistan end up with laws on the books that say that honor killings are illegal despite the fact that it appear to be OK with the their patriarchal/tribal power structure? Is this a legacy from the Russians?

I am not an Afghan legal expert - however I will say that 'murder' is definitely against the law, and I am unaware of any legal statute on the books that permits the notion of an 'honor' killing. My understanding of the situation is that in cases of an honor killing, a local judge would elect to consider the 'honor killing' aspect of the incident and perhaps judge accordingly - reducing the sentence, or perhaps letting the act go altogether. More commonly is the whole thing is covered up. These kinds of killings in Afghanistan tend to happen in small villages with very nascent rule of law to begin with. I'm not saying they never happen in somewhat more developed places like Kabul - they certainly do. But they are much more likely to take place in less sophisticated, rural areas with nominal policing.

I will send an Email to a friend of mine who spent several years there on the legal side of things, for her opinion. Maybe she will reply.



As for fixing the legal system ... that is probably equivalent to nation building and I wonder if that would work in the Middle East. It did work for Japan after WWII, but I believe that Japan was hated and feared by most other Asian countries which is probably one of the reasons that the Americans were able to do this. I don't think the same dynamics are in place in the Middle East. Also, I think the US was willing to do a lot of expensive nation building after WWII to help prevent a future WWIII. I'm doubtful that the same degree of nation building would have support from American citizens now or from any other democratic/republican country's citizens. So who would do it? I also cheerfully admit that I'm doing a lot of speculating in ignorance in this post.

If I were king of the world, I would tie it directly to aid. Policy for pay, if you will. Either the Afghan government accepts far-reaching and widespread legal reforms (with all the destablizing/sensitive issues to the notion of central government this entails) or the aid tap is turned off. Or a debt is not forgiven. Without going into details of my job, trading difficult and sensitive policy actions in return for debt forgiveness/aid packages was how we got traction early in the piece in 2002/3/4. The less-direct negotiations just fail to work in the Afghan environment - because basically they have developed a real knack in the past 100 years or so, how to milk anything they possibly can out of foreign governments...

Is there anyway to help the women directly?

As a side activity, me and my partner were very involved with a local Women's NGO, that was seeking to empower women through small business development. Basically we assisted some 110 women to gain some measure of economic independence by helping them market their handicrafts to Westerners. We were hugely successful, and in our spare time over 2 years, these women raised over $200k USD which went directly to their pockets, through the sales of embroideries, dolls, simple jewellery etc...

And still, almost weekly, some woman would come to the center having been beaten for some perceived impropriety, or some woman would have her money stolen by her worthless husband. In one case, one of our women was attacked with a caustic substance and we had to scramble to get her aid to save her eyes.

And, even though I am proud of what we achieved, this was simply a band-aid. These women, especially without the West there to perform some form of babysitting are doomed when we pull out.

An anecdote for what its worth. My family background is Orthodox Jewish. One of my great-grandfathers was basically a tyrant and he insisted that all of his sons be married by 16 years of age and his daughters by 12. (He had a dozen children.) He succeeded in forcing his oldest son and daughter into marriage. The rest of his children ran away. Unfortunately for the tyrant but fortunately for his other children the big city was not that far away and they were able to get jobs, the daughters as well as the sons. Their options broke his tyranny. Incidentally, none of the 10 run-aways stayed orthodox, probably not a coincidence.

I think if the Afghani women were able to have true options that this problem could be done away with within two, perhaps even one generation. To take my mother's aunts and uncles as an example though, they were never under house arrest and while they were threatened with forced marriages, they were never threatened with death or even acid attacks or facial amputations.

I'm just wondering if there is a way to offer Afghani women true help in that type of extremely hostile and dangerous environment.

:(

I am perhaps cynical after my time in country. So my opinion is interesting in that is a real-life anecdote, but I also am admittedly somewhat jaded. My answer is no. The country is going to go back to being hell in a handcart. When we pull out, we should turn our back and shut our eyes, and wait until the screaming stops.

And whoever next goes in with a military intervention, should turn it into a parking lot.

The only way to break this cycle is actually to physically break it, and then try to do something with the pieces that are left.
 
Do you understand the term 'hypothetical'?

Anyway... So how are we judging 'successful'? How would define the criteria for judging? What if an 8 year-old boy living in poverty who did not attend school, in some third world country claimed to be extremely happy, but an 8 year-old boy living in America with a middle-class family claimed to be unhappy?

Obviously I do. The point you are missing is that using objective criteria for human conditions your hypothetical model isn't relevant. That's the whole point of objective data. North Korea can't be successful.
 
Obviously I do. The point you are missing is that using objective criteria for human conditions your hypothetical model isn't relevant. That's the whole point of objective data. North Korea can't be successful.

Wow. I blame myself you know; I should just be blunt and say what I mean instead of trying to lead you gently to the water.

How about this; you have established all your relevant criteria, gathered all your 'objective' data (in order to prove your subjective concept), analysed the data, then put together your model of the 'ideal culture' which - you'll discover with a (feigned) embarrassed chuckle of surprise - is basically a Western Culture (probably American as well). You're now ready. What you are suggesting is that 'you' actually go out into the real world - to countries like Pakistan or Afghanistan - and actually issue an ultimatum that amounts to:

"We did some research and apparently our cultural values are the best in the world, so we'd like you to change your culture in line with our values, and stop doing the following things...

What gives us the right, you say? The research we conducted that shows we are the BEST CULTURE IN THE WORLD! We don't care if you don't like it; our people do - our schools are better than yours, most of our citizens have jobs and houses - now roll over!"

You can dress it up with all the armchair critical thinking and 'objective models' you like, but this is essentially what you are proposing in a real world scenario, in countries full of religious fundamentals who despise the West and everything it stands for, and you really, really think that "We're awesome and have got the evidence to prove it" is going to cut it with these people?
 
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I can comment directly on this - there is an incredible number of young people (a growing number by the time I left) who would welcome a return of 'The Taliban' to power. As described to me by a number of young Afghan men whom I had hired (and paid well) to be translators or technical members of my team, while 'some bad things' happened under the Taliban, at least they 'knew where we stood'. And the Taliban supported their religion. They see the West as a negative influence (all this said while enjoying their cellphone, internet porn, bluejeans & salary paid by the Western world).

In a nutshell, if you are a devout muslim, the fact that you may not be able to listen to music, have to grow a beard, and live in what we would consider a repressive society - this is not seen as a negative. Indeed, it is seen as a positive alternative to what has evolved in Afghanistan between 2002-2012.

These are young Afghan men, most of whom were raised in Pakistan by middle-class families during the bulk of the fighting, and have some level of schooling (albeit at a Pakistani institution). They are literate & multi-lingual.

It will be interesting to see if my Afghan colleagues have this same opinion when their $2500 a month dries up.

I completely agree, and said as much earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, many people cannot see past 'Taliban evil' and understand the complexities of the situation in Afghanistan, and places like it, and confuse comments about the Taliban being welcomed back, as support or approval for the Taliban.

Having also spoke to many interpreters, and other educated Afghan people, I have seen examples of some of the things you say. A lot of these people are more than happy to embrace certain elements of Western culture, but the aspects they don't like, they REALLY don't like.

On the topic of the OP:

I don't believe anyone would say that Honor Murders are 'OK'. Indeed, in Afghanistan, if you kill your daughter for reasons of honor, you will go to jail. 'Honor' is not a legal excuse.

Exactly.

So the question becomes - how do we stop honor murders? My perspective is that I'm not sure we can. We can't, afterall, stop 'murder' in its broader sense - and an honor murder is simply one excuse among many of why people kill other people. Sure - it is a particularly horrific and heinous excuse, but is it any worse than the murder in a crime of passion, or a psycho/sexual killer's murder? Its murder, full-stop.

Where the West should be intervening is on the legal side.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It will take more time and resources than we have to stamp out something which has been a huge part of a culture for 3000+ years - if we could stamp it out at all - the easiest way to do it is to make sure that it is taken extremely seriously in the courts.

What is appalling in all of this, is that judges (which are an inept, corrupt, aid-sinkhole in Afghanistan) often will not treat an honor killing with the same severity as another instance of murder. Likewise, many of these crimes go under-reported or mis-reported. It doesn't take much abstract thought to read between the lines when one hears a young woman was discovered electrocuted in the bathtub because the hair-dryer fell in. (This was a rather common occurence in Afghanistan - I think I read 3 publicized reports of this 'accidental' death during my time there.)

So rather than looking for ways to stop honor killing itself, IF the West is going to get involved at all, then I would suggest the cultural change is probably something we will never gain traction against - at least that sort of cultural change takes generations. We COULD fix the legal system as a tangible result.

Again, many armchair activists simply do not understand the mindset of these people, and I have been reluctant to completely voice my opinions in this thread for many reasons, not least of which is that apparently drawing on first-hand experience to formulate an opinion is starting 'a pissing contest'; or not advocating forcing our values on other cultures is directly supporting honour killing.

We COULD try and 'fix' the Legal System, but I personally believe it wouldn't stay fixed much past 2014, if it ever got fixed at all, but from what you go on to say, you appear to know what's likely to happen just as well as I do...

However, I suspect that as Afghanistan loses its aid-draw, and the 'pullout' starts to take place (it will never be a complete withdrawal) honor killing, and many other examples of crimes against women will be the first area where the small inroads we have made, are all undone.

When we pull out the troops, we should pull out the media. Because the pictures will be very bleak indeed.

Yup - there it is!

No, the plan as it stands at the moment is not for a complete withdrawal. However, I would not be at ALL surprised to see a very quick 'emergency withdrawal' at some stage, or even a very quick 'emergency surge' of troops back in.

What I'm driving at is the hypocracy of things. Materially, these Afghan's lives have improved - they embrace aspects of 'Westernization' (particularly the internet porn part.) They embrace the ability to get a salary beyond the wildest dreams of most Afghans - schoolteachers received $165 USD a month when I left. But while they're gazing at porn & enjoying comforts that a reasonable salary allows, they will still say 'the lives of Afghans haven't improved since the West got involved'. They will still say 'I liked it when the Taliban was in control because it was safe, and they respected Islam.'

Again, this is what many of our armchair activists here fail to understand. It's one thing to read about the plight of the Afghan people before the Taliban, during Taliban rule, and post-Taliban rule - it's another thing completely to see and speak to them first hand. They love anything that makes their lives a bit easier - shiny western gadgets and luxuries - but they do not embrace our culture; they do not wish Western values imposed on them. A lot of people simply cannot see past their own point of view and think that just because they're happy, that the Afghans (or another similar culture) would embrace their Western values with open arms.

What you said here sums it up perfectly for me, and this is what a lot of people simply cannot wrap their heads around:

In a nutshell, if you are a devout muslim, the fact that you may not be able to listen to music, have to grow a beard, and live in what we would consider a repressive society - this is not seen as a negative.

Actually, I'm reminded of a conversation I had with an Afghan interpreter about the Taliban and their rule, and I couldn't make him understand why I found one of his comments so funny. He basically said to me "At least the Taliban kept order - you should have seen this place before they took over!", and the first thing I thought of was Monty Python's 'Life of Brian', where the People's Front of Judea are discussing the Roman Occupation (the "What have the Romans ever done for us?" scene) where the guy says (something along the lines of) "Oh, yeah - remember what the city USED to be like before the Romans came, Reg!"

The reality is that outside of Kabul & major centers (Jbad, Herat, Kandahar, Mazar etc...), the West hasn't been able to improve the lives of the average Afghan very much, if at all. Afghans don't connect (semi)democratic elections with any sort of a 'win'. They want to see running water, sewage, schools, hospitals, roads, a live outside of subsistence agriculture. Or perhaps for many of these remote Afghans, really they just want to carry on with their simple existences and be left alone.

That's the provinces in a nutshell.

My personal opinion is that any US politician who tells you they are 'pulling out' of Afghanistan is lying. The infrastructure built there is clearly built with a long-term view. Kandahar and what has been put in place there is staying - and the US/NATO will patrol Central Asia from that location for years to come - no question.

"Pulling out" is a generic term used mainly by the media I think, which gives the wrong impression. We generally use the term "drawing down", which gives a better idea of what the long-term strategy is. My personal feeling is that we don't want to be seen simply dropping Afghanistan like a pan of hot crap and bugging out, but that's EXACTLY what we want to do. The West effectively want to be able to say "Look - there's your government; there's your army and police; it's all yours, bye!", and then "draw down slowly" as quickly as they can without looking like they're bugging out.

And, even though I am proud of what we achieved, this was simply a band-aid. These women, especially without the West there to perform some form of babysitting are doomed when we pull out.

As doomed as they've always been.

I am perhaps cynical after my time in country. So my opinion is interesting in that is a real-life anecdote, but I also am admittedly somewhat jaded. My answer is no. The country is going to go back to being hell in a handcart. When we pull out, we should turn our back and shut our eyes, and wait until the screaming stops.

And whoever next goes in with a military intervention, should turn it into a parking lot.

The only way to break this cycle is actually to physically break it, and then try to do something with the pieces that are left.

I agree completely, and think you summed that up perfectly. I wouldn't say 'cynical' or 'jaded', but 'realistic', based on my limited experience.
 
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Thanks for the referral, I've added it to my "books to read" list. As you say, it is strange, and I'd like to read more about it.

If you or anyone else also happen to know of a book that explains why countries who weren't really on board with the idea signed treaties with Britain supporting the end of slave trade on the Atlantic, I'd like to read about that too. No doubt it was due to a combination of carrot and stick tactics, but I'd really like to know more about how Britain managed to get those treaties.

I would say that at least partly because countries consist of a range of special interests. There might be a general sentiment against the slave trade, but the people engaged in it would have a strong interest in keeping it going.

In the case of the USA, there was a majority feeling against slavery itself, but we know how that panned out. There were many people in the South who wished to make a living out of trading slaves. There were other people who disapproved, but who nevertheless did not want to see US ships halted by the British Navy.
 
I think it would be interesting to know why these volunteers decided to support the Taliban. You can't solve a problem until you understand it.


ETA: Anybody know if Antique Hunter is still around? I think he worked for a NGO in Afghanistan, it would be interesting to read his take on things.

Overseas support for the Taliban probably goes back to the Russian invasion. The Russians were not a benevolent presence in Afghanistan, but they did have some benevolent ideas. Unfortunately the effect was to associate the likes of women's education with helicopter gunships - which led the mujahideen to oppose both.
 
And that's simply all I have been saying for the last 8 pages or so.

And I knew that, but I don't think you knew that I already knew that.

I want the West to support and assist campaigns against honour killings. As for the rest of Afghan culture, its up to them.

I suggest a deal, free subscription to Red Hot TV if you stop the honour killings :p
 
Men all over the world have been able to get away with more than women.
 
Seriously? That's your argument?

We have laws against killing, don't we ? I wonder why that is... maybe it's because we actually do kill each other a lot when left able to do it, which is why there's been so much of it so far. Look at how many people scream "death" as punishment when they hear of certain forms of crime.

And seeing how animals kill each other routinely as well, even within their own groups, I don't think empathy is that much engrained.
 

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