General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bigjelmapro]

zionists believe that they are 'the chosen of god'.
zionists believe they have a right to evict palestinians from their land because god gave it to them.

they consider themselves above the rest of us.
i call that 'supremacist'.
what do you call it?

All nonsense. Move along.

 

[bigjelmapro]

you support a preemptive nuke strike on a country that has no nukes, to prevent a nuke war?
wow...the epitome of hypocrisy and stupidity.

Where does he support this? I'm sure you don't enjoy having things/ideas shoved into your mouth, what makes you think others do?

 

[bit_pattern]

**** the useful idiots.

Yup. Poor sods. Unwitting agents of Israeli agitprop. They really are a bunch of one-eyed chauvinist goons.

 

[L.Y.S.]

**** the useful idiots. Go die in a fire. Or in a log cabin on occupied native lands.

I'm not sure he's willing to travel to occupied Palestine yet.

 

[Doctor Evil]

zionists believe that they are 'the chosen of god'.
zionists believe they have a right to evict palestinians from their land because god gave it to them.

they consider themselves above the rest of us.
i call that 'supremacist'.
what do you call it?

Lets be honest here. Both the chosen bit, and the land given by god bit, are related to the Jewish religion, not to Zionism. Moreover, you used the chosen in a way which misrepresent how this notion is used in Jewish theology. Just so you know, the leaders of the early Zionist movement were not religious. If you do not believe in god you can't really believe that god gave you something. The land of Israel was the focus of the movement because historically this is the place where the Jewish people was formed. It was also one of the few places Jews could go to at the time, so practical considerations were involved.

Funnily, the concepts you mentioned are likely to be held by the Jewish religious loons whose website you linked to earlier. They just think that one has to wait for the messiah before the Jews can get their land back. I wonder how come you like them so much?

So what do we have here. A post which misrepresent the views of the people on the 'other side', and in fact replace their actual views by your prejudices. It is also a post use the word 'Zionist' but the context is related to 'Jew' instead. This is precisely why previous posters in this thread were right when they said that parts of the antizionists movement is infected by antisemitism. You post is not a meaningful criticism of zionism, it is simply a repetition of antisemitic stereotypes. Disgusting.

 

[WildCat]

wow...really.

And I bet some of your best friends are Jewish too!

 

[John Mekki]

What do you think Ahmadinejad is supporting than?
Peace, understanding, and the mutual recognition of the right to live?

I am not an Iranian citizen, so not responsible of what Ahmadinejad says.
But I am responsible of what Western leaders says, if I live in the West

A preemptive strike would be bad. Very, very bad.
What do you think should be done to prevent all of this hot and bothered talk on both sides?
I would say that both sides should do a lot more talking to each other rather than past.

Then I agree more or less with you

Sanctions are helping to bring the Iranian regime to the negotiating table. Their last offer was that if all sanctions were removed, and there were no monitors, than a few years down the road they would think about not developing nuclear weapons.
Hopefully this time they will be more serious.

It would also be great to consider that the NPT asks to countries with nuclear weapons to get rid of nukes (and they are not) and that the US should not threaten other countries with nukes.
Also, it would be a good idea to support the two state solution as Palestinians also have the right to their country.
And maybe what about saying "sorry" to Iran for having supported Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war?

Etc.

 

[HoverBoarder]

What do you think Ahmadinejad is supporting than?

Peace, understanding, and the mutual recognition of the right to live?

I am not an Iranian citizen, so not responsible of what Ahmadinejad says.
But I am responsible of what Western leaders says, if I live in the West

It is an international world, and what leaders say and do has impacts on all of us. Especially when they talk about wanting genocide in other countries, or how other countries are a "cancer."

You support the Iranian regime, you watch their propaganda TV station, and you are interested in the world developments that involve them. You should at least be aware of the major incendiary and violence promoting speeches from their leader, as well as the violent mass killing groups they support, and recognize how that affects their conflicts in the region and the world.

When anything bad about Iran is brought up, you bring up another country, when any statements from Ahmadinejad are raised, you bring up statements from someone else.

You have to at least acknowledge the pro-genocide, or near pro-genocide comments from Iran if you want understand and address the problems in the region. Like Syria, or Israel-Palestine, or the reason why people are so worried about Iran developing nuclear weapons.

Do you think calling the people who live in Israel "a cancer" helps to move the Israel-Palestine peace negotiations forward?

What impact do you think it has on the Iranian people? If his statements are not supporting genocide, why are so many Iranians under that impression as Wildcat pointed out:

Why do the Iranians seem to be confused as to what he said?

[qimg]http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped01.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped02.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/zluhig.jpg[/qimg]

Yep, nothing says "not genocidal, not even vilent, no way" like those pics from Tehran!

A preemptive strike would be bad. Very, very bad.

What do you think should be done to prevent all of this hot and bothered talk on both sides?

I would say that both sides should do a lot more talking to each other rather than past.

Then I agree more or less with you

Good, a lot less "death to the USA, and death to Israel" and a lot more "how about we talk with the USA and Israel and work together on a solution to our problems."

Although that would be a little out of character for Iran, it would be a positive move for everyone.

Sanctions are helping to bring the Iranian regime to the negotiating table. Their last offer was that if all sanctions were removed, and there were no monitors, than a few years down the road they would think about not developing nuclear weapons.

Hopefully this time they will be more serious.

It would also be great to consider that the NPT asks to countries with nuclear weapons to get rid of nukes (and they are not) and that the US should not threaten other countries with nukes.
Also, it would be a good idea to support the two state solution as Palestinians also have the right to their country.
And maybe what about saying "sorry" to Iran for having supported Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war?

Etc.

The US has been working on a two state solution for a long time. Part of the problem is that you have groups like Hamas who include the goal of killing all Jews as a primary tenet in their constitution.

If you get rid of the 'yeah we will negotiate, by murdering all of people in the opposition' tactic that Hamas and Iran support, than negotiations would be a lot more fruitful.

As for apologizing for the Iran-Iraq war which we supported both sides on, sure we could apologize, but how do you think apologizing would change anything?

Do you think Iran would be "sorry" for supporting killings of Jews around the globe, or support for the bloody Syrian regime, or sorry for killing so many innocent protesters, gays, and other people in their country?

The main reason there is a problem today is the mass killing that Iran has supported, and continues to support today, and that they have indicated that they will continue in the future. How do you stop the major mass killing that Iran supports (without deflecting the issue and bringing up other countries)?

 

[bikerdruid]

And I bet some of your best friends are Jewish too!

i don't know any jewish people in this area.
this is a remote rural area..there is not a synogogue within a 6 hour drive.
however, in calgary had did have several jewish friends, and taught at a high school with a large jewish population.
i have never had a problem with a student because of their religion.

 

[bigjelmapro]

I'm not sure he's willing to travel to occupied Palestine yet.

'Occupied Palestine' is one of the most fictional phrases I've heard...

 

[Zax63]

'Occupied Palestine' is one of the most fictional phrases I've heard...

But didn't you see the appalling conditions in Darth Rotor's link?

'Resistance' by the pint: Palestinian brewery thrives Nadim Khoury l

I mean, they could barely run a thriving business with local and international distribution. And I think some of the beer at that festival may have been warm.

 

[bikerdruid]

'Occupied Palestine' is one of the most fictional phrases I've heard...

don't know much about history, eh?
east jerusalem and the west bank are certainly 'occupied palestine'.

 

[HoverBoarder]

don't know much about history, eh?
east jerusalem and the west bank are certainly 'occupied palestine'.

So any ideas on what to do about that?

Cause I get that it is easy to point a finger at the Israelis and say "fix it," but that doesn't get the sides any closer to a solution. And while it may feel good for you to do so, it doesn't help the Palestinians at all.

Do you think the Hamas goal of killing all the Jews, as is included in their constitution, is something that should be addressed in negotiations?

 

[bikerdruid]

So any ideas on what to do about that?

certainly.
return to 1967 borders.
the palestinians in the west bank have more legitimate claims to their farms than recent american jewish immigrants expropriating their land, for example.

 

[carlitos]

zionists believe that they are 'the chosen of god'.
zionists believe they have a right to evict palestinians from their land because god gave it to them.

they consider themselves above the rest of us.
i call that 'supremacist'.
what do you call it?

You must not be describing the everyday zionists.

 

[HoverBoarder]

certainly.
return to 1967 borders.
the palestinians in the west bank have more legitimate claims to their farms than recent american jewish immigrants expropriating their land, for example.

A pretty reasonable position, although there would be some changes from the 67' borders.

However, what about the Palestinian groups who would not accept that agreement? The groups like Hamas who have said that they would accept nothing short of a complete removal of all Jewish government anywhere?

Or even the more radical groups than Hamas?

Should an agreement just be made with the West Bank government?

 

[bikerdruid]

A pretty reasonable position, although there would be some changes from the 67' borders.

However, what about the Palestinian groups who would not accept that agreement? The groups like Hamas who have said that they would accept nothing short of a complete removal of all Jewish government anywhere?

Or even the more radical groups than Hamas?

Should an agreement just be made with the West Bank government?

i do not claim to have all of the answers, however, the current situation is unreasonable.
i believe that if israel actually acted in good faith, and made major concessions, especially in the west bank, some of the extremists would modify their demands and expectations.

 

[L.Y.S.]

'Occupied Palestine' is one of the most fictional phrases I've heard...

Sure

 

[Virus]

History shows things get worse the more Israeli concessions are made.

 

[bikerdruid]

History shows things get worse the more Israeli concessions are made.

codswallop.