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Honor killing in Pakistan

 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
So be patient, I'm busy 14/7 in Oct/Nov giving flu shots. I've been looking through the dozen threads we've already spent on this topic to find the best citations I've already posted.

Here's a couple you can search yourself, if you just can't wait:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170759&highlight=evolution+morality

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224718&highlight=evolution+morality

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239002&highlight=evolution+morality

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215737&highlight=evolution+morality
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Admittedly I have only had a brief look at each thread, but so far there is nothing to support your assertion that we are born with morals 'baked in'.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
So who judges which cultures are better, and what is the standard they are judged by?
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It's rather easy really. We can look at any number of measures of human fulfillment (education; happiness surveys; data on children's fears, hopes, security index) and then assess which culture is doing better on the scales. All that's needed are objective facts about the safety and satisfaction of members of a culture. The only difficulty lies in determining where the cultural factors are the cause of lack of fulfillment.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
And BELIEVE me, I really do agree, but for me it HAS to be 'an assist' on our part to change already taking place from within. It should never simply be a case of 'That doesn't measure up to our values and standards - which are MUCH better than yours, incidentally - and we don't like it, so stop it OR ELSE!"

ETA: I'm loathe to commit a 'Slippery Slope' fallacy, but where would that end, particularly in terms of 'West' Vs 'Middle East'?
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It doesn't have to be an assist, we can just do it. We should do more with all the media that western democracies pump into lesser developed nations than encourage the wearing of saggy jeans.
 
Craig4 said:
It's rather easy really. We can look at any number of measures of human fulfillment (education; happiness surveys; data on children's fears, hopes, security index) and then assess which culture is doing better on the scales. All that's needed are objective facts about the safety and satisfaction of members of a culture. The only difficulty lies in determining where the cultural factors are the cause of lack of fulfillment.
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I see. So, if such a system was implemented and - for the sake of argument - the North Koreans came out top, would you be happy for Western cultures (USA, UK) to implement any cultural changes the North Koreans suggested?
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
I see. So, if such a system was implemented and - for the sake of argument - the North Koreans came out top, would you be happy for Western cultures (USA, UK) to implement any cultural changes the North Koreans suggested?
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If it did North Korea would not be the North Korea we all know and mock.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
I see. So, if such a system was implemented and - for the sake of argument - the North Koreans came out top, would you be happy for Western cultures (USA, UK) to implement any cultural changes the North Koreans suggested?
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If you are talking about North Korea as it is now, then no as the system that came out with the result that N Korea was on top could only have come from the despotic, unhinged, corrupt regime that is N Korea.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
Admittedly I have only had a brief look at each thread, but so far there is nothing to support your assertion that we are born with morals 'baked in'.
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So do you think people learn what to be empathetic about? Are happiness and sadness emotions learned? Do you think most people had to learn that killing another person is wrong?
 
There is certainly an instinct to love and protect your off spring. That surely must be unlearned to want to kill them.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
Yes? I'm sure many White South Africans didn't agree with abolishing apartheid at the time either. It doesn't change the fact that there was a huge shift from within the US regarding the morality of slavery.
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But probably not within the US states that ultimately decided to try to secede from the Union. At least not among the people with the political power.





Well done USA!



And there were pre-apartheid Black Rights groups in SA in 1948.

Back to my original point; The desire for change was already present to a certain extent in both America and SA prior to pressure from external powers.
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There are organizations in the middle east striving to gain basic human rights for women also. I really didn't have to look hard for them, took less than 30 seconds on google. Here's a couple:

Pakistani Women's Human Rights Organization
Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)

There is a history of women enjoying better civil rights in Afghanistan and Iran in the not too distant past, but ultimately losing it for reasons beyond the scope of this thread. And also, frankly, beyond the time I have free this week to refresh my memory. But the information is easily available on the net if you would like to look into it for yourself.


Returning to my original point; Western Countries pressing other Western Countries to change elements of their culture is fine - it's not even something that happens often as the fundamentals of Western culture rarely differ - I don't personally seeing that as interfering.
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How do you decide? Your boundary lines seem pretty arbitrary to me. Why not set your boundaries at shared Abrahamic religious cultural background? Or something else?

Does anyone know if any Middle Eastern Countries applied any international pressure to America to end slavery, or to SA to end apartheid?



Because Western cultural values are fundamentally Christian-based across the board, and White South Africans are descended from the West, and their culture is essentially a Western culture.
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Your response does not addressed the points that I had brought up in my previous post.



Obviously that is your opinion, but I seriously doubt that another culture is going to emulate the worst aspects of a seperate culture (such as honour killing), simply because "Well, THEY'RE doing it!" - especially if those elements don't 'fit' into their culture. Honour Killing is something that has been going on for 3000+ years in the Middle East - it didn't pop up overnight.
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How people and nations influence each other is a little more complicated than that.

Honor killing is really more about power. You might recall that Europe had a period of "witch burnings" which was also about power at the time.
Studies of the time showed that people who were likely to be accused and judged guilty tended to not have friends among the politically well connected. They were often older women (sometimes men) who had inherited just enough property to make them of interest to greedy people who wanted an excuse to seize it, but not enough property to enable them to hire their own private guards to keep it. They also tended to be people who were a little bit too independent minded for the political and church leaders liking.

I'm going to have to take time off from JREF for a little while and catch up on real life obligations.

Just want to add that if you are seriously interested in finding out more about how people are hard wired to have certain values you can try googling "sense of fairness". You'll get a lot of hits, including links to scientific studies.
 
Kaylee said:
There is a history of women enjoying better civil rights in Afghanistan and Iran in the not too distant past, but ultimately losing it for reasons beyond the scope of this thread. And also, frankly, beyond the time I have free this week to refresh my memory. But the information is easily available on the net if you would like to look into it for yourself.
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There's a tendency to see the Islamic world as a monolithic bloc. It most certainly isn't. The tragedy of Iran is something that keeps happening - brutal secular repression is replaced with a religious repression that has far more impact on people's lives. Women in Iran lived far freer and more modern lifestyles than their Arab neighbours, but when the Shah was overthrown they lost their rights. A new generation of women have nowhere near the personal freedoms of their mothers. Afghanistan, OTOH, was generally more backward, but in the urban areas there was far more freedom, until the Taliban took over. The Taliban were popular because they replaced brutal, uncontrolled warlords. So it goes.
 
westprog said:
There's a tendency to see the Islamic world as a monolithic bloc. It most certainly isn't. The tragedy of Iran is something that keeps happening - brutal secular repression is replaced with a religious repression that has far more impact on people's lives. Women in Iran lived far freer and more modern lifestyles than their Arab neighbours, but when the Shah was overthrown they lost their rights. A new generation of women have nowhere near the personal freedoms of their mothers. Afghanistan, OTOH, was generally more backward, but in the urban areas there was far more freedom, until the Taliban took over. The Taliban were popular because they replaced brutal, uncontrolled warlords. So it goes.
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Thanks for taking the time to give a brief summary westprog. The history really is tragic. It seems that a lot of things have to go right in order for most people in a society to live in relative freedom with basic rights. I'm very grateful that I live in a Western society in modern times.

I only know about Afghanistan from what I've read on the various news sites and the book "The Kite Runner" which while fiction is presumably based on reality. If the Taliban are considered saviours, I can't even begin to imagine what the warlords were like.
 
Kaylee said:
Thanks for taking the time to give a brief summary westprog. The history really is tragic. It seems that a lot of things have to go right in order for most people in a society to live in relative freedom with basic rights. I'm very grateful that I live in a Western society in modern times.

I only know about Afghanistan from what I've read on the various news sites and the book "The Kite Runner" which while fiction is presumably based on reality. If the Taliban are considered saviours, I can't even begin to imagine what the warlords were like.
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The Russians came in to bring the Afghans enlightened, secular values, which they did, up to a point. Unfortunately they did this at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives, and incidentally the destruction of the Soviet Union. All the might of the biggest country in the world coupled with the ideology that defined the twentieth century clashed with militant Islam and lost massively. Russia shattered on Afghanistan as much as it did against Star Wars.
 
I don't think there is any way to take out the subjective element from any system of morality. We might choose, for example, evolutionary principles to be the measurement of morals (so, to be entirely pragmatic and ex post facto about morality), but we could choose otherwise and people have. How to prove such choice to be objectively wrong? However, this impossibility does not imply relativity. I have chosen enlightenment liberalism (or, if you prefer, humanist-Christian values) to be my measurement of morality, and would not hesitate to call it superior to killing your daughters for looking at boys - and in certain circumstances would not even oppose of imposing these values on people and areas that are particularly intensively breaching them. I don't really see why this would be illogical, the opposite in fact. We cannot be neutrally in the world.
 
Craig4 said:
If it did North Korea would not be the North Korea we all know and mock.
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Nessie said:
If you are talking about North Korea as it is now, then no as the system that came out with the result that N Korea was on top could only have come from the despotic, unhinged, corrupt regime that is N Korea.
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Guys, the question wasn't "If there was some sort of universally agreed benchmark for whose culture was 'best', what would you think if North Korea won it?", but rather "If there was some sort of universally agreed benchmark for whose culture was 'best' and North Korea won it, would you be happy if North Korea began imposing its moral values on UK/USA?", but I think you knew that, and I think you know the answer.

Reading between the lines, you'd be happy for some sort of 'Universal Benchmark', but only if it were Western values (your values) that were used.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
So do you think people learn what to be empathetic about? Are happiness and sadness emotions learned?
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No, that would be silly. Please stop hitting the strawman you've just made and point out where I was talking about 'emotions'. What I was discussing with you - the claim which you have failed to provide one shred of evidence for - is that we are born moral; that morals are already 'baked-in' to our brains at birth.

While you're at it you may wish to provide evidence for your claim that soldiers are able to overcome the inhibition to kill by thinking of the enemy as 'other than human'.

Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you think most people had to learn that killing another person is wrong?
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Yes. Why would Christians waste one of Ten Commandments on "Thou shalt not kill" if it was already built in?
 
Kaylee said:
Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Yes? I'm sure many White South Africans didn't agree with abolishing apartheid at the time either. It doesn't change the fact that there was a huge shift from within the US regarding the morality of slavery.
Click to expand...

But probably not within the US states that ultimately decided to try to secede from the Union. At least not among the people with the political power.
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It doesn’t matter who DIDN’T think it was a good idea – that’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that there WAS a desire for change from within the US, and change was not brought about mainly due to external pressure.

Kaylee said:
Quote:
Well done USA!



And there were pre-apartheid Black Rights groups in SA in 1948.

Back to my original point; The desire for change was already present to a certain extent in both America and SA prior to pressure from external powers.
Click to expand...

There are organizations in the middle east striving to gain basic human rights for women also. I really didn't have to look hard for them, took less than 30 seconds on google. Here's a couple:

Pakistani Women's Human Rights Organization
Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)

There is a history of women enjoying better civil rights in Afghanistan and Iran in the not too distant past, but ultimately losing it for reasons beyond the scope of this thread. And also, frankly, beyond the time I have free this week to refresh my memory. But the information is easily available on the net if you would like to look into it for yourself.
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That’s smashing – it really is. But – once again – you’re not seeing what I am saying; We should not be imposing our cultural values and standards on other cultures just because we don’t like theirs. If there is a desire for change within, then I am all for helping. I have never said there is no desire for change within Middle Eastern countries, so you wasted 30 seconds.


Kaylee said:
Quote:
Returning to my original point; Western Countries pressing other Western Countries to change elements of their culture is fine - it's not even something that happens often as the fundamentals of Western culture rarely differ - I don't personally seeing that as interfering.
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How do you decide? Your boundary lines seem pretty arbitrary to me. Why not set your boundaries at shared Abrahamic religious cultural background? Or something else?
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Not sure what you mean. What do you think Western morals and values are fundamentally based on? What have I suggested they are based on?

Kaylee said:
Quote:
Does anyone know if any Middle Eastern Countries applied any international pressure to America to end slavery, or to SA to end apartheid?



Because Western cultural values are fundamentally Christian-based across the board, and White South Africans are descended from the West, and their culture is essentially a Western culture.
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Your response does not addressed the points that I had brought up in my previous post.
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Because I don’t see how they were relevant to a Western culture imposing its completely differing values and standards on a Middle Eastern one. Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

You seem to be determined to prove that it’s OK for us to dictate cultural values to a completely differing Middle Eastern culture by showing that Western cultures have influenced change in other Western cultures.

Kaylee said:
Quote:
Obviously that is your opinion, but I seriously doubt that another culture is going to emulate the worst aspects of a seperate culture (such as honour killing), simply because "Well, THEY'RE doing it!" - especially if those elements don't 'fit' into their culture. Honour Killing is something that has been going on for 3000+ years in the Middle East - it didn't pop up overnight.
Click to expand...

How people and nations influence each other is a little more complicated than that.
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You think? Maybe I was simplifying…

Kaylee said:
Honor killing is really more about power.
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Really? I thought it was about family honour…

As noted by Christian Arab writer, Norma Khouri, honor killings originate from the belief that a woman’s chastity is the property of her families, a cultural norm that comes "from our ancient tribal days, from the Hammurabi and Assyrian tribes of 1200 B.C."
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Kaylee said:
You might recall that Europe had a period of "witch burnings" which was also about power at the time.

Studies of the time showed that people who were likely to be accused and judged guilty tended to not have friends among the politically well connected. They were often older women (sometimes men) who had inherited just enough property to make them of interest to greedy people who wanted an excuse to seize it, but not enough property to enable them to hire their own private guards to keep it. They also tended to be people who were a little bit too independent minded for the political and church leaders liking.
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They certainly ended up being about power and land/cash-grabbing, yes; that was one of the main reasons why they were ended, but they certainly didn’t start out that way:

What had previously been a belief that some people possessed supernatural abilities (which were sometimes used to protect the people) now became a sign of a pact between the people with supernatural abilities and the devil. To justify the killings, Protestant Christianity and its proxy secular institutions deemed witchcraft as being associated to wild Satanic ritual parties in which there was much naked dancing, and cannibalistic infanticide. It was also seen as heresy for going against the first of the ten commandments (You shall have no other gods before me) or as violating majesty, in this case referring to the divine majesty, not the worldly.
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Kaylee said:
Just want to add that if you are seriously interested in finding out more about how people are hard wired to have certain values you can try googling "sense of fairness". You'll get a lot of hits, including links to scientific studies.
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I did. In a nutshell it’s not conclusive; there’s just as strong an argument to suggest it’s something we quickly develop through learning, given there’s no evidence of it before 15 months.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
Guys, the question wasn't "If there was some sort of universally agreed benchmark for whose culture was 'best', what would you think if North Korea won it?", but rather "If there was some sort of universally agreed benchmark for whose culture was 'best' and North Korea won it, would you be happy if North Korea began imposing its moral values on UK/USA?", but I think you knew that, and I think you know the answer.

Reading between the lines, you'd be happy for some sort of 'Universal Benchmark', but only if it were Western values (your values) that were used.
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Seems as though they think that their values are the "Universal Bookmark" values.
 
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