General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bikerdruid]

With nuclear weapons?

iran has no nukes.
israel has many.

 

[Mycroft]

codswallop.
i despise the domestic and foreign policies if the israeli government.
i have nothing against the jewish people.
i despise our prime minister and his governments blind support of anything that israel does.
however, i have nothing against jewish canadians.
if you cannot see the difference, it is your issue, not mine.

The difference is that you're willing to excuse or ignore any and all incitement and violent rhetoric from one side while simultaneously dismissing any need or desire for self-preservation from the other side. You can claim religion or ethnicity is not behind the double-standard, but there is still a double-standard.

 

[Mycroft]

iran has no nukes...

Not yet, but they're clearly trying to make them.

When they do, do you support their use in removing the "cancerous tumor" you described earlier?

 

[trustbutverify]

codswallop.
i despise the domestic and foreign policies if the israeli government.
i have nothing against the jewish people.
i despise our prime minister and his governments blind support of anything that israel does.
however, i have nothing against jewish canadians.
if you cannot see the difference, it is your issue, not mine.

Of course you and Ahneedajob aren't racists. You just both believe that most Jews are collections of diseased, filth ridden cells growing uncontrollably in an attempt to infect and destroy the healthy host cells.

 

[bikerdruid]

Of course you and Ahneedajob aren't racists. You just both believe that most Jews are collections of diseased, filth ridden cells growing uncontrollably in an attempt to infect and destroy the healthy host cells.

more codswallop, in the form of frothing rhetoric.
the state of israel is not 'most jews'.

i know what is in my heart.
you do not.

 

[trustbutverify]

although i agree with, "The Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumor," it does not mean that i wish all israelis dead.
not all israelis of jews are zionist, and not all zionists are jews.
for example, the harper government in canada is very 'zionist' and blindly supports everything that israel does.

more codswallop, in the form of frothing rhetoric.
the state of israel is not 'most jews'.

Let's see here. You stated that "Zionists are a cancerous tumor". I replied that you and your holocaust-doubting friend believed most Jews are a cancerous tumor. About 80% of all Jews live in Israel or the US. Unless you're claiming that most Jews aren't Zionists, my characterization is correct. Is that what you're claiming?

i know what is in my heart.
you do not.

Right, because racist people are never able to convince themselves they aren't really racist.

 

[bit_pattern]

**** Israel and its conservative American acolytes. [SNIP]

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal comments.

 

[bikerdruid]

Let's see here. You stated that "Zionists are a cancerous tumor". I replied that you and your holocaust-doubting friend believed most Jews are a cancerous tumor. About 80% of all Jews live in Israel or the US. Unless you're claiming that most Jews aren't Zionists, my characterization is correct. Is that what you're claiming?




Right, because racist people are never able to convince themselves they aren't really racist.

please quote where i have said anything about jews in america.
and keep your smarmy accusations for one who cares what you think.

i have nothing against jews.
i despise the domestic and foreign policies of the state of israel.
these statements are not remotely in opposition.

 

[trustbutverify]

please quote where i have said anything about jews in america.
and keep your smarmy accusations for one who cares what you think.

i have nothing against jews.
i despise the domestic and foreign policies of the state of israel.
these statements are not remotely in opposition.

You stated that "Zionists are cancerous tumors." Zionists live in countries other than Israel. Unless you're claiming that most Jews worldwide aren't Zionists, my statement that you believe most Jews are cancerous tumors is 100% correct. And when someone makes racist comments, I'm going to call them on it. If you don't like it... well, you know what you can do.

 

[bikerdruid]

well, you know what you can do.

yup...ignore...bye.

 

[trustbutverify]

yup...ignore...bye.

How will I go on?

 

[bikerdruid]

actually, it appears that about 73% of jews are zionists...higher than i would have thought...
so 73% of the jewish world view themselves as superior to their fellow humans and believe this gives them the right to administer an apartheid state in the middle east.
wow.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/about/visitorcomments/comment_details.cfm?ItemNo=1173

 

[Virus]

That website says Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/gedalyaLiebermann.cfm

 

[bit_pattern]

That website says Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/gedalyaLiebermann.cfm

Haven't looked at the link yet but am willing to bet it doesn't say anything of the sort...

 

[bikerdruid]

Haven't looked at the link yet but am willing to bet it doesn't say anything of the sort...

and you would be correct.
it does not.

 

[L.Y.S.]

That website says Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/gedalyaLiebermann.cfm

The linked document doesn't inherently say this. Judaism and Zionism are by no means mutually exclusive ideas. And the document goes into great detail to explain this concept. I will however tip my hat in saying that the document did infer that Zionists are to blame for the travesties of the holocaust, though it was a fairly cherry picked point on your part. Furthermore, it is important to note that the document also establishes the general disdain SEVERAL leading figures of Judaism had for Zionism. These figures (according to the document) have warned that Zionism can become JUST as violent and racist as other nationalists movements (including Nazism, which several parallels are made but the direct comparison is not stated. at least from my reading of the document). The document also states how several pro-Zionists politicians are disconnected from Jewish law, and are thus unqualified to speak for the Jewish people during the tumultuous times of the 1930s and 40s (again, what the document states, not independently verified).

Again, this document does not inherently blame Jews for the holocaust, but it does go into excruciating detail as to how Zionism could've potentially sparked the holocaust. I of course take no position on this, other than to say that the above is what the document said, and your statement is not entirely true, as always. Please attempt not to cherry pick, thank you.

 

[HoverBoarder]

overthrowing an oppressive government does not equate with genocide.

It's not just the government that groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, or the Iranian theocracy want to overthrow.

It is the very existence of Jews in what is now Israel and Palestine.

It would take genocide to achieve that goal.


That is a trap of hate, and an easy way out to avoid the hard work of achieving peace. You are not going to remove Israel from the Middle East without engaging in major genocidal killing.


You think the current treatment of the Palestinians is unfair, I think that the current treatment of the Palestinians is unfair.

You think the current living conditions forced on the Palestinians in Gaza, in the West Bank, and in camps all across the Middle East are unjust. I think the current living conditions forced on the Palestinians in Gaza, in the West Bank, and in camps all across the Middle East are unjust.

You think the killing of Palestinians in Gaza right now, and the people killed including the families and children killed in attacks like operation Cast lead are horrific and evil. I also think that they are wrong, unjust, and were often unnecessary and preventable.

You and I have both looked at the continual shrinking control of Palestinian land, and thought that it was not right. That is was unjust. That it is wrong.

The only real difference is what you and I think should be done about it.


For too long, too many in the Middle East have grown up in cultures of hate, despair, and desires for revenge. It is the easy way out to blame this all on Israel, to blame it all on the Zionists. To caste our finger out in an unflinching and unwavering certainty of guilt at the party that is fully responsible for all of the woes.

That thinking however prevents serious self reflection. It is a 'scapegoating understanding' that forgoes serious analysis of all of the many factors in this conflict in favor of a simplified one sided, and unchanging viewpoint.

It is the easy way out, and it doesn't help anyone.

It doesn't help the poor kids in unrecognized villages get any closer to getting the food and materials they need to survive. It doesn't help the families in Gaza living near the Israeli border reduce their fear that at any time they could be a victim of an Israeli air or artillery strike. It doesn't help the families living in the many Palestinian camps around the Middle East get any closer to the goal that they will at some point be vindicated for their suffering and earn the right to return to their families homes.

It is easy to slip into a pattern of hate and one sided condemnation, but it doesn't get the Palestinians anywhere closer to peace, and it is not befitting of the beyond war hippie ideology that you and I respect.

If you truly care about the people suffering in Palestine, there is a way to help them, but it cannot be achieved through war. It cannot be achieved through genocide, it can only be achieved through lasting peace, and the promotion of mutual understanding and justice.


Letters from Asel

Today I will be asked to choose between what they call as “protecting and remembering” and between what they call “forgiving.” I will be asked to choose. And I will, will my choice be the right thing to do, or will it be the wrong thing to do. Well… as a friend of mine once said: “Out beyond ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there.”

 

[trustbutverify]

That website says Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/gedalyaLiebermann.cfm

IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION.

The so called "anti-Zionist movement" is, for the most part, nothing more than a clumsy front for a cadre of vile bigots. Their ranks are utterly saturated with racism, and as the above clearly demonstrates- there is no level low enough to which they won't stoop.

 

[HoverBoarder]

The so called "anti-Zionist movement" is, for the most part, nothing more than a clumsy front for a cadre of vile bigots. Their ranks are utterly saturated with racism, and as the above clearly demonstrates- there is no level low enough to which they won't stoop.

Most 'anti-Zionist' groups do not try very hard to hide their racism.

It's a balancing act. They want to be just racist enough that they can attract other like minded members, but still maintain their thinly veiled covers so they don't have to go through the inconvenient aspect of having to directly call themselves racists.


We went through the same thing with the 'Birther' movement here.

 

[John Mekki]

Perhaps because this is a way to prevent a nuclear holocaust, rather than starting one. If you can't tell the difference between the two you need to get your medicine adjusted.

So you would "prevent" a "nuclear Holocaust" by dropping a nuclear bomb on a country that, so far, has not been proven to have nukes?
Gee..

This reminds me of Adolf Hitler that said that Nazi Germany had to invade USSR (and kill 20 millions people in the process) to prevent an invasion by the USSR.
Good grief..

The only good thing I can say is that, fortunately enough, you are not in place to do much harm (hopefully). Phew!!