No one is saying you're incorrect in much what you type; the wiggle is what to do to bring about change, since a number of us have witnessed change in less time than might be imagined.
Honor killing in Pakistan
- Thread starter TimCallahan
- Start date
No one is saying you're incorrect in much what you type; the wiggle is what to do to bring about change, since a number of us have witnessed change in less time than might be imagined.
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
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That is a fail as female nudity is not on the same level as killing them in the name of a misplaced honour.
If you are such the expert, why do they not kill the rapists sibling, the one who really has shamed the family by being a incestuous rapist?
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
When I started in police work back in the late 60s, working predominantly in a lower-middle-class neighborhood full of industrial workers, domestic assaults and abuse were very, very common.
The scenario was so similar as to be almost comical; Friday night hubby would take his paycheck to the bar, get snortin' drunk, then come home and the inevitable fight with the wife would end up with the house torn up and the lady of the house at least beaten up and sometimes hospitalized.
This was so common that during a trip to the local supermarket on Monday you'd see a large percentage of the checkout ladies sporting fresh makeup to cover black eyes and bruises.
It was unusual to go a weekend without a report, and the vast majority of these incidents are not reported.
The women never prosecuted. Not during the 10 years I was on that department. Not one. I had women who were hospitalized, who suffered detached retinas, broken jaws, teeth knocked out....
We had a mandatory three-day "cooling off" period back then before warrants could be applied for.
You'd call the woman on the third day.... They were no longer interested in prosecution. Hubby was the only support for the family. He'd apologized. He'd bought gifts. He'd promised not to do it again....
All those tired old things you see them putting into the plot-lines of SVU....All dead-on true.
Homicides were not uncommon.
Then, in the late 70s, the domestic-abuse laws were (finally) changed. Now, if there is even the slightest evidence of an assault, the husband is arrested. And it's a serious charge; not a "common assault" such as used to be the case.
There are ongoing consequences.
As a result, the level of domestic violence has considerably dropped off, and though it's still a problem, it seems to us in police work that this notion that it's unacceptable behavior is becoming common knowledge in the communities.
One can only hope....
I can't speak as to how deeply this sort of behavior is part and parcel of human nature and a by-product of the way domestic situations are structured and societal pressures and all that...
I have read enough to know that spousal abuse, spousal murder, psychological abuses, and all those related things are common all over the world.
I listened to an NPR segment on the problem in Japanese society... Apparently very bad, with the women up until recent times virtually powerless.
Likewise in various Latin countries; Brazil being singled out in several articles with an extremely high homicide rate and until recently almost no prosecution for homicides committed "in the heat of passion".
There may be human societies free of this; I don't know.
The anthropologist Marvin Harris speculated that domestic abuse started once we moved into discrete housing; where things could be done behind closed doors rather than in front of the whole tribe....
The scenario was so similar as to be almost comical; Friday night hubby would take his paycheck to the bar, get snortin' drunk, then come home and the inevitable fight with the wife would end up with the house torn up and the lady of the house at least beaten up and sometimes hospitalized.
This was so common that during a trip to the local supermarket on Monday you'd see a large percentage of the checkout ladies sporting fresh makeup to cover black eyes and bruises.
It was unusual to go a weekend without a report, and the vast majority of these incidents are not reported.
The women never prosecuted. Not during the 10 years I was on that department. Not one. I had women who were hospitalized, who suffered detached retinas, broken jaws, teeth knocked out....
We had a mandatory three-day "cooling off" period back then before warrants could be applied for.
You'd call the woman on the third day.... They were no longer interested in prosecution. Hubby was the only support for the family. He'd apologized. He'd bought gifts. He'd promised not to do it again....
All those tired old things you see them putting into the plot-lines of SVU....All dead-on true.
Homicides were not uncommon.
Then, in the late 70s, the domestic-abuse laws were (finally) changed. Now, if there is even the slightest evidence of an assault, the husband is arrested. And it's a serious charge; not a "common assault" such as used to be the case.
There are ongoing consequences.
As a result, the level of domestic violence has considerably dropped off, and though it's still a problem, it seems to us in police work that this notion that it's unacceptable behavior is becoming common knowledge in the communities.
One can only hope....
I can't speak as to how deeply this sort of behavior is part and parcel of human nature and a by-product of the way domestic situations are structured and societal pressures and all that...
I have read enough to know that spousal abuse, spousal murder, psychological abuses, and all those related things are common all over the world.
I listened to an NPR segment on the problem in Japanese society... Apparently very bad, with the women up until recent times virtually powerless.
Likewise in various Latin countries; Brazil being singled out in several articles with an extremely high homicide rate and until recently almost no prosecution for homicides committed "in the heat of passion".
There may be human societies free of this; I don't know.
The anthropologist Marvin Harris speculated that domestic abuse started once we moved into discrete housing; where things could be done behind closed doors rather than in front of the whole tribe....
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SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
Imagined superiority? You're the one suggesting that all people of a certain culture are sexists by choice, and that they should adhere to your values.
Let's just say that in the last 4 years I have spent nearly 2 in Afghanistan, and leave it there.
I speak a tiny amount of Pashto, but have always spoken to the Afghan males through an interpreter, as these people do not speak a single word of English. They are so far removed from what we would consider society, they would not even recognise a can of coke. These are some of the most hospitable people I have met, and they would go hungry in order to feed me and my group to ensure their reputation.
These same people who have absolutely no ill-will towards Westerners, opened fire on an American patrol. Luckily, nobody was killed, and an extremely tense situation was avoided. Why did these people open fire on the Americans? Because one of the soldiers copped a mouthful of dust and turned his head and spat. Just as they were passing the village mosque. He didn't spit ON it, he accidentally spat in that direction. Honour demanded that he be killed for that insult. It was certainly nothing personal, and nothing to do with race, etc. That is simply their way of life.
The same person who would leave himself hungry to feed me, as a matter of honour, pride and reputation treated his wife like a servant. Are you, Mr "I'm Absolutely Qualified To Judge An Entire Culture Based on Meeting Some Immigrants, and Knowing a Friend of a Friend Who Once Spent a Year in the Middle East" seriously going to tell me this man - and many, many like him - was deliberately being sexist for kicks, and it was nothing to do with the culture he was raised in?
Who said for kicks? But it is indeed by choice because I've witnessed that choice changing.
It seems to me that perhaps you're more interested in being right on the internet than much of anything else.
But again, I'm biased in favor of not honor murdering.
I'll leave it to Mr. Right on the Internet to correct any gross errors I may have typed.
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
Oh god, you really don't get it do you?! Of course it isn't to US! How do you think one of these guys would react if his daughter walked down the main village street in a bikini?!
You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding. Me.
Because it's not his fault! The daughter was probably leading him on, but that's by the by. She has to die, because she is no longer pure; no man will touch her, and is therefore a HUGE source of shame and dishonour! His culture demands she be killed!
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
I am also against Honour Killing.
Ah, so it's Ad Homs and a bit of poisoning the well instead of addressing any of the points I made? Suit yourself.
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
OK; you don't get it. Understood.
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
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Yeh, right
I don't care that you were given a free lunch and so you now defend their culture as if you are the only one who really understands it.
I agree with some of your points.
I don't agree when you stomp your feet and insist I agree because you know all sides of the equation, because you don't.
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
Yeh, right
I don't care that you were given a free lunch and so you now defend their culture as if you are the only one who really understands it.
Oh dear god... You cannot be serious. I have had free lunches in Kosovo, Bosnia and Afghanistan, for varying reasons. The point - which you simply cannot see - is not that I ate free, but the emphasis these people place on honour and reputation.
I despair that I had to even explain that.
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
I wasn't stomping my feet. I'm pointing out to you that in my experience actually among these type of cultures, there is no such thing as 'sexism' by choice. It is absolutely culturally second nature.
I'm not about to get into a pissing contest over it.
That's kinda rich.
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
Well when you write-off an entire culture incorrectly based on limited experience, in order to prove your point, you didn't leave me much of a choice.
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
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I despair that you have not read the research into the topic I did at the very start of this thread. I understand izzat and I have enjoyed middle eastern people's great hospitality. I have also cringed at the way the women are sometimes treated by the men.
I despair that you are presently arguing from a point where you think you are the only one who gets this.
Again, your opinion is yours.
Have a good time thinking you're right on the internet.
ETA:
Just a wiggle about "writing off an entire culture," because frankly the comment pisses me off; I'm commenting on observations I've made. You have no frikken clue about the cultures I associate with, break bread with, drink with; how *********** dare you assume anything based on an internet conversation in which you claim a correspondent is lacking understanding. I understand quite a bit, and I experience quite a bit and my Iraqi, Pakistani, Mexican and other friends and coworkers are fine fellows, with some odd quirks and a few rather noxious beliefs.
I would imagine they think the same about me.
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SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
It speaks volumes that your only response to that has been an Ad Hom.
Enjoy the rest of your day!
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
Illuminator
Then going by your replies above I can only conclude that you're exercising an ill-judged sense of humour; trolling; or back-pedalling.
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
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That is an interesting point.
If we right off the honour killings, domestic violence, lack of education for women and inequality between the sexes, are we righting off the whole culture?