Honor killing in Pakistan

[Skeptic Ginger]

These are all good points. Urbinization and industrialization will hasten the breakdown of any traditional society. However, Turkey recently experienced a spike in honor killings. Here's the opening sentences from the article (emphasis added):

A drastic rise in reported "honor" killings and fatal domestic violence in Turkey has sparked a vigorous debate about the government's recent attempts to address the problem. It also highlights the clash of conservative values with the country's rapid modernization.

To reiterate, two steps forward, one step back does not mean change is not occurring.

And I don't know, was there a spike in killings or a spike in reports of killings that might otherwise have gone unnoticed or been covered up as some other cause of death?

 

[westprog]

It speaks great volumes to the level at which this type of action is tolerated in the Islamic world, even in Jordan, a progressive Muslim state.

AFAIAA, Jordan is particularly prone to this. It's on the boundaries that this is particularly prevalent.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Or the law dictates. I've seen this in action; a sadistic mysogynist is constrained in his sadism by local law, but returns right to it upon getting back to the old country. These folks brag about it to me, how they're gonna treat "their" women when they get back, or how they wish they could while here.

Amazing how they restrain their fanaticism; this isn't culture but convenience.

I don't doubt you've seen this. But to say this is nothing to do with culture is a bit short-sighted. We - Westerners - call it sadistic or mysogynistic, they call it normal; they probably don't even have an equivalent word for 'mysogynistic'.

I think what you are seeing is people relocated to a different culture from their own, seeing how women are treated within our culture, fearing/loathing it and wishing they could behave like they did in 'the old country', or even longing to return in order to maintain the status quo.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

You suggest a false dichotomy by saying "forcing" as if there is no other means of influence.

So how do you 'influence' another culture to take up your moral values and stop being (what you consider) immoral?

When I use the word 'force', I don't necessarily mean 'physical violence'.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

So you misunderstand then, what people are suggesting be done.

I don't think I do... Go back over the thread and have a good look at what many people are suggesting be done.

What does support change from within mean?

Really? OK...

First there has to be a call for change from within - a large cultural shift. There's no point trying to do anything if it's a tiny minority calling for change. Once there is a large enough cultural shift in attitudes, there would probably be no need for external support anyway, but support can be provided by means of advice and guidance, if requested - that's the important bit.

How do you do that if you voice the opinion 'it's their culture' as an apology?

I have? You really don't understand my position at all, do you?

If a culture begins to change from within, and wants outside help, then by all means we should help them. This does not mean that other (Western) cultures who consider themselves more developed should feel free to dive in and force change just because they don't like what the others are doing.

Please explain how I am 'apologising' for anything.

At some point, that too will need to be addressed. There is too much else to do first, so it doesn't take up much of my waking thoughts.

Hang on; young men - boys even - are being horribly mutilated and tortured by their elders for fear of being shunned by the tribe and never being able to marry, and this is something you don't really think too much about? Shouldn't we be dragging these primitives screaming and kicking into the 21st century?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

The world is smaller now, and the 'West' can serve as a tool to illuminate the 'wrongness' of certain cultural behaviors such as honor killings.

The world is much smaller, and the Chinese are much stronger and larger. I'm assuming you'll welcome them with open arms should they decide it is their duty to illuminate the 'wrongness' of many of your cultural behaviours?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Post 121 by SatansMaleVoiceChoir : You've 'grown up' enough to think that forcing your values on another culture who are doing something you don't agree with is a viable solution?

I would have no compunction about forcing my values on this society, one in which incestuous raping brothers get five months in jail for raping and murdering their sisters.Had I the power, I would run roughshod over such cultures and grind them into the dust.

Don't get me wrong; I agree, and I'd love to. But where does it end, and really - what gives us the right to measure their cultural values against ours, and decide ours are the 'purest'?

Therein, however lies the problem: We probaly don't have the power to directly force such change. It will probably have to come from within.

And again, you're right, and we have to hold to this or we would be dominating a power weaker than us for not conforming to our standards...

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

We, of course, can do little but apply such pressures as embargoes and sanctions.

Which amounts to forcing other cultures to conform to our values and standards.

 

[Kaylee]

Don't get me wrong; I agree, and I'd love to. But where does it end, and really - what gives us the right to measure their cultural values against ours, and decide ours are the 'purest'?

Seriously? The sanctity of human life does. This goes beyond cultural values -- we are not discussing preference of clothing styles or food here.

It really irks me when people place "cultural values" on a higher level of importance than human lives. And, it seems to me that some people are more likely to do so when its women lives at stake.

Do you have the same concern about "cultural values" when discussing African slavery? Or about South African apartheid before 1990?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Seriously? The sanctity of human life does. This goes beyond cultural values

Who says?

 

[Resume]

I don't doubt you've seen this. But to say this is nothing to do with culture is a bit short-sighted. We - Westerners - call it sadistic or mysogynistic, they call it normal; they probably don't even have an equivalent word for 'mysogynistic'.

I think what you are seeing is people relocated to a different culture from their own, seeing how women are treated within our culture, fearing/loathing it and wishing they could behave like they did in 'the old country', or even longing to return in order to maintain the status quo.

I think you're a bit naive; certainly their culture plays a role in their mysogyny, but you should see how they treat their American girlfriends.
Suddenly, they're all opened-minded and 21st century; that little head has quite the noggin on it when it comes to getting themselves some. Of course they treat their wives back home same/same.

No, it's convenience when they slip from culture to culture changing colors like chameleons.

 

[Nessie]

I don't doubt you've seen this. But to say this is nothing to do with culture is a bit short-sighted. We - Westerners - call it sadistic or mysogynistic, they call it normal; they probably don't even have an equivalent word for 'mysogynistic'.

I think what you are seeing is people relocated to a different culture from their own, seeing how women are treated within our culture, fearing/loathing it and wishing they could behave like they did in 'the old country', or even longing to return in order to maintain the status quo.

I just do not see how it can be called normal to kill daughters who have been raped by their own siblings. It is not normal behavouir in any shape or form and I am sure even they must know it is horrible and cruel. I can prove that by taking the rapist son, pouring acid over him and then setting him on fire. I am sure they would object to me doing that, hence proving they understand it is wrong.

 

[Nessie]

The world is much smaller, and the Chinese are much stronger and larger. I'm assuming you'll welcome them with open arms should they decide it is their duty to illuminate the 'wrongness' of many of your cultural behaviours?

Honour killings is an extreme form of cultural behaviour that ranks along side cannibalism, slavery and head hunting. We have no such thing in our society, so the Chinese have nothing to find when it comes to changing another's culture which is reasonable.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I think you're a bit naive; certainly their culture plays a role in their mysogyny, but you should see how they treat their American girlfriends.
Suddenly, they're all opened-minded and 21st century; that little head has quite the noggin on it when it comes to getting themselves some. Of course they treat their wives back home same/same.

No, it's convenience when they slip from culture to culture changing colors like chameleons.

Oh god... I'll revoke my "short-sighted" comment, and raise it to "narrow-minded"... You haven't a clue what makes these people tick, have you? A huge majority of Middle Eastern cultures have spent thousands of years valuing women as nothing more than a necessary commodity/means of reproducing the male bloodline; it's taught at a fundamental level in their society, and you think it's just because they're all sexists and sadists?!

Have you actually been somewhere like Afghanistan, to areas where life isn't much different now than it was 100 years ago - certainly in terms of culture? Have you spoken to these people (at least the ones who WILL speak to Infidels)? I have, and I'll categorically state that you are wrong.

 

[Nessie]

....... A huge majority of Middle Eastern cultures have spent thousands of years valuing women as nothing more than a necessary commodity/means of reproducing the male bloodline; it's taught at a fundamental level in their society, and you think it's just because they're all sexists and sadists?!

........

Their culture has allowed males to flourish and dominate as sexists and sadists. That is what they are.

 

[Resume]

Oh god... I'll revoke my "short-sighted" comment, and raise it to "narrow-minded"... You haven't a clue what makes these people tick, have you? A huge majority of Middle Eastern cultures have spent thousands of years valuing women as nothing more than a necessary commodity/means of reproducing the male bloodline; it's taught at a fundamental level in their society, and you think it's just because they're all sexists and sadists?!

Have you actually been somewhere like Afghanistan, to areas where life isn't much different now than it was 100 years ago - certainly in terms of culture? Have you spoken to these people (at least the ones who WILL speak to Infidels)? I have, and I'll categorically state that you are wrong.

And haven spoken to an Iraqi (just this morning!)that lived outside of Mosul (near Nineveh)for most of his life until emigrating here I'll categorically state you're overstating your case.

Now what?

ps:

I'm very narrow-minded towards honor murder, I freely admit.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Female public nudity is an extreme form of cultural behaviour that ranks along side depicting the Prophet, apostasy and allowing women to flirt with men. We have no such thing in our society, but the decadent Westerners do. It is our holy duty to show them the error of their ways

There's your quote from the perspective of a culture that believes killing a female child is the only way to maintain family honour.

I merely used the Chinese as an example of a large, powerful nation that wouldn't have too much trouble 'policing the world' if they wanted to. The question I'm raising is not why they would do it, but what if they DID do it - what would give them the right to do so?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

And haven spoken to an Iraqi (just this morning!)that lived outside of Mosul (near Nineveh)for most of his life until emigrating here I'll categorically state you're overstating your case.

Now what?

My god - you spoke to ONE Iraqi THIS morning?! I bow to your unlimited experience of these people! I see now how you are able to write off entire cultures as sadistic sexists!

No, not really.

I take it you speak Iraqi Arabic or Kurdish then?

 

[Resume]

My god - you spoke to ONE Iraqi THIS morning?! I bow to your unlimited experience of these people! I see now how you are able to write off entire cultures as sadistic sexists!

No, not really.

I take it you speak Iraqi Arabic or Kurdish then?

Actually working for me, with me, and around me are:

Three Iraqis (one muslim, 2 assyrian)

2 Pakistani muslims

2 Indian hindis

1 Indian muslim

Syrian assyrian

A number of catholic Mexicans

3 pentecostal Mexicans.

I've worked with, for and around a number of different Middle-Eastern (and beyond) cultures for nearly 40 years; my MIL worked and lived in Kuwait and Saudi for a number of years and I'm friends with her friends as it were.

I am sadly only bi-lingual in Spanish.

Resume's resume so to speak.

You may now continue with your regularly scheduled imagined superiority.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Their culture has allowed males to flourish and dominate as sexists and sadists. That is what they are.

'Allowed'?! That IS their culture. You make it sound like it was a conscious decision on the part of all males to become sexists a few years ago.

Rewind our culture 1000 years; were we being deliberately sexist in our treatment of women or was it just the cultural norm? Are you seriously suggesting that every male was deliberately sexist?