Honor killing in Pakistan

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I used to believe this naive position. I still have tremendous respect for cultural differences.

But I've grown up enough to recognize there are human limits, there is human morality and culture is not a reason to accept certain immoral things as OK.

You've 'grown up' enough to think that forcing your values on another culture who are doing something you don't agree with is a viable solution?

 

[I Ratant]

I used to believe this naive position. I still have tremendous respect for cultural differences.

But I've grown up enough to recognize there are human limits, there is human morality and culture is not a reason to accept certain immoral things as OK.

.
Growing up is very painful when it removes the voice of all authority and replaces it with laws and restrictions on behavior. Over in the Whogivesashitastans, it's the village elders and mullahs that will fight to your death... not theirs, they only incite, and don't participate in what they incite..

 

[Resume]

Or as fanatical as their culture dictates they be.

Or the law dictates. I've seen this in action; a sadistic mysogynist is constrained in his sadism by local law, but returns right to it upon getting back to the old country. These folks brag about it to me, how they're gonna treat "their" women when they get back, or how they wish they could while here.

Amazing how they restrain their fanaticism; this isn't culture but convenience.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There is likely to be an increase in the number of honor killings in the short term as Middle Eastern countries shift into western economic systems. As objective conditions change, familial and community structures change. Those in formerly privileged positions will become less powerful and less important. There will be reactionary responses to those changes.

Someone here suggested that dragging the Klan into the 20th century was the proper response. And while that is true, it wasn't the Chinese or the Italians who came from overseas to do it, it was done by Americans, and many of them southerners. The same is true of the Mid East. They will be dragged into the new cultural norm by themselves. Efforts to impose your values on me will generally result in my further entrenchment of my values. The Crusades didn't actually work. Sending in the Marines to "liberate" the women of the Mid East is likely to have about the same level of success.

No one suggested sending in the marines. And while the Chinese didn't voice their disgust with the Klan, the Northerners did.

The world is smaller now, and the 'West' can serve as a tool to illuminate the 'wrongness' of certain cultural behaviors such as honor killings. The parents in the OP case were arrested. Hopefully they'll be punished. The 'culture' of these countries and groups is changing. Exposure in the world arena results in backlash, just like the images of dogs being set on marchers on the Edmund Pettus Bridge and the face of Emmett Till in his coffin resulted in a backlash from 'outsiders' who recognized the immorality of black oppression.

In the 50s and 60s America, it was the rest of the country. In the century of global Internet, it is the rest of the world. We can indeed exert social pressure to speed up the cultural changes and help the women and children who are the victims of these cultures.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You've 'grown up' enough to think that forcing your values on another culture who are doing something you don't agree with is a viable solution?

You suggest a false dichotomy by saying "forcing" as if there is no other means of influence.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Or the law dictates. I've seen this in action; a sadistic mysogynist is constrained in his sadism by local law, but returns right to it upon getting back to the old country. These folks brag about it to me, how they're gonna treat "their" women when they get back, or how they wish they could while here.

Amazing how they restrain their fanaticism; this isn't culture but convenience.

Change is not necessarily as fast as people might like it to be.

We can observe bacteria evolve. While it's not as easy to see people evolving, that doesn't mean they aren't.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Or the law dictates. I've seen this in action; a sadistic mysogynist is constrained in his sadism by local law, but returns right to it upon getting back to the old country. These folks brag about it to me, how they're gonna treat "their" women when they get back, or how they wish they could while here.

Amazing how they restrain their fanaticism; this isn't culture but convenience.

Surely this is a case of you can take the person out of the culture but not the culture out of the person? They may be delaying gratification while under the more restrictive laws so it's effecting their behaviour in the short term but their thoughts and intentions are apparently still shaped by the culture that formed them and they intend to return to. In this case your subject was clever enough to restrain himself until he could legally carry out his desires, if that option had not existed maybe he wouldn't have done it but alternately maybe he'd have done it under the more restrictive laws and tried to hide it?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...My position is, 'It' is not 'OK', but we should not drive change, rather support change from within.

So you misunderstand then, what people are suggesting be done.

What does support change from within mean? How do you do that if you voice the opinion 'it's their culture' as an apology?

...I'm not OK with any of these things either. Neither would I be OK with forcing cultural change on any society practicing any of these things. I would potentially be OK with supporting cultural change within a society where many people were calling for it.

Tell me, you know certain primitive tribes practice ritual mutilation on young men/boys as part of a 'Rite of Manhood' ceremony - it's quite horrific - how do you feel about that?

At some point, that too will need to be addressed. There is too much else to do first, so it doesn't take up much of my waking thoughts.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Surely this is a case of you can take the person out of the culture but not the culture out of the person? They may be delaying gratification while under the more restrictive laws so it's effecting their behaviour in the short term but their thoughts and intentions are apparently still shaped by the culture that formed them and they intend to return to. In this case your subject was clever enough to restrain himself until he could legally carry out his desires, if that option had not existed maybe he wouldn't have done it but alternately maybe he'd have done it under the more restrictive laws and tried to hide it?

Some of the white kids involved in attacking the the first black kids to go to their school have personally apologized to the black kids they attacked. Believe it or not, people do actually change major cultural beliefs. Not everyone, of course, and not all at once. But culture does change.

 

[westprog]

Regardless, I don't agree with either of your premises.

Some things are not OK on the basis of it just being another culture: child slavery, severe oppression of women, murder for superstitious or cultural beliefs, disfigurement including amputations as punishment, torture, political imprisonment, child abuse, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, abuse of the the mentally ill, rape, genocide....

Those are all beyond my moral limits regardless of my respect for cultural differences.

This is interesting because it touches on a perennial topic on JREFR&P - are moral values relative or absolute?

If moral values are absolute, it makes sense to say that the above are not OK. If moral values are relative - then why does one person's view of what is or is not morally acceptable take precedence over the views of the people involved?

Of course, if one is a total moral relativist then it makes no sense to insist that people have the right to decide things for themselves. You might think that people have the right to decide things for themselves - but how does that view take precedence over the view that I am allowed to intervene and prevent that from happening?

Not being a moral relativist, I am quite happy to condemn certain things as absolutely wrong. Trying to keep moral relativism and moral condemnation both in the air at once involves very skillful juggling.

 

[I Ratant]

Some of the white kids involved in attacking the the first black kids to go to their school have personally apologized to the black kids they attacked. Believe it or not, people do actually change major cultural beliefs. Not everyone, of course, and not all at once. But culture does change.

.
And while we experience the change personally. The 1964 Civil Rights Act for one. I went from going to integrated schools from 1944 to 1953 in Kansas and Germany to the segregation existing in Virginia until 1956, when I went to an integrated college. Now all schools are integrated, and better for it. And there's no separate "facilities".. blacks no longer must go to the rear of the bus.. or sit in the balcony in the theater..

 

[Nessie]

Can I just point out that at no point have I said invade and impose our will on those nations who practice honour killings. I have instead repeatedly said we would support campaigns in those countries for change within and make it clear in our country it is wholly unacceptable.

To that I would add support for the UN campaign against it

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33971&Cr=violence+against+women&Cr1#.UJvwpYZRySo

so there is international pressure and I would like to see women fleeing honour killings as prime candidates for refugee status here.

Nothing there suggests imposing our will on those countries in the fashion SMVC is going on about. I see campaigns, protests, riots by those countries trying to impose their primarily Islamic beliefs on us. If they went as far as sanctions to do that, I would respond.

I am not aware of any campaigns by supporters of honour killings to have such done elsewhere. It only appears acceptable in their own culture as I am sure they are aware no other culture would ever accept such repression and repugnant acts.

 

[TimCallahan]

I think you misunderstand me - I'm talking about those who commit 'Honour Killings' being punished by law; not the social/religious 'crimes' of the victims.

You're right. I did misunderstand you. Unfortunately, however, perpetrators of honor killings are dealt with quite leniently in places like Pakistan and Jordan, such as the mother who murdered her own daughter getting a two year sentence or the brother who murdered his sister getting a seven year sentence. Impose the death penalty in all cases without exception and the rate of honor killing might well drop.

Governments in those benighted countries could also set up camps to which those bringing dishonor on their families could be sent as opposed to them being killed. At these camps, the girls (mostly) sent there would have their names changed and would never be returned to their families. They could re-enter society somewhere else, preferably in a large city.

We, of course, can do little but apply such pressures as embargoes and sanctions.

 

[Resume]

Surely this is a case of you can take the person out of the culture but not the culture out of the person?

No this was a case of a person using his culture as an excuse to be abusive and sadistic.

And it wasn't just one case either.

I should add that in one case the father bemoaned the fact that his daughter had escaped the household to become a dentist of all things, and was no longer under his thumb.

Her money is accepted however.

 

[TimCallahan]

Another problem with honor killings and the clash of cultures occurs when these scumbags come into our culture and try to impose their values here. The is particularly true of the honor killings of Amina and Sarah Said by their own father. In such cases, we should show no mercy. Not only should the perpetrator be summarily put to death, but those in the family who facilitated or cooperated with the murderer should be harshly prosecuted.

 

[joesixpack]

No one suggested sending in the marines.

Many were suggesting appropriate punishments for the parents, regardless of the fact that they face trial and punishment in their own country. How are we to impose these suggested punishments without force?

But in all honesty, I was being a bit hyperbolic there. I don't think people were suggesting force of arms.

And while the Chinese didn't voice their disgust with the Klan, the Northerners did.

Not entirely. The Klan was at one time quite well represented in the Northern states. The primary assault on segregation came from the clash of the predominately urban and industrialized culture vs the predominately rural and agrarian culture. It was the shift in economic conditions which precipitated the civil rights movement. Many Southerners were also as involved in the movement (all of the black southerners, and a non-trivial percentage of whites as well).

The world is smaller now, and the 'West' can serve as a tool to illuminate the 'wrongness' of certain cultural behaviors such as honor killings.

And I agree with this.

The parents in the OP case were arrested. Hopefully they'll be punished. The 'culture' of these countries and groups is changing. Exposure in the world arena results in backlash,

But you have to remember that exposure to western culture also results in a backlash of the entrenched power structure.

just like the images of dogs being set on marchers on the Edmund Pettus Bridge and the face of Emmett Till in his coffin resulted in a backlash from 'outsiders' who recognized the immorality of black oppression.

In the 50s and 60s America, it was the rest of the country. In the century of global Internet, it is the rest of the world. We can indeed exert social pressure to speed up the cultural changes and help the women and children who are the victims of these cultures.

It wasn't the outsiders being affected by those images as much as it was the Southerners themselves. The power structure that supported segregation and oppression lost the general support of the population over time.

Remember that pressure was brought from other areas of the US, but it was still the US. It will be the same in Pakistan or Jordan or Turkey. The change will come from the more western and urban centers of those countries, and they will ultimately change the state of affairs in the rural and tribal areas.

 

[TimCallahan]

Here's another example of the horror of honor killing (from the article, emphasis added):

He waited one evening, callously, for his daughter to come home. When she opened the door to her home, he surprised her with the tip of a six inch steel blade. Her brother watched as his father silently pressed the cold metal into the soft bare skin of his daughter's chest. In mere seconds he applied enough pressure that the blade slowly became completely buried within the girl's fragile body.

Following the first thrust, he repeatedly and violently stabbed at her body, until he had inflicted seventeen wounds to her lifeless chest, arms, neck and stomach. After a short time has passed, he called the police to turn himself in, but not before he was completely sure that no amount of resuscitation could return breath to the cold dead body that now occupied his living room floor.

The murder of his daughter has restored honor to his family. The father was convicted of killing his daughter for honor and received a sentence of three months in jail. The brother who watched and did nothing was not even arrested.

The article also mentions this incident (emphasis added):

In 2000, a thirteen year old girl was murdered in Jordan by her older brother, Anas. Word got out that his youngest brother had raped her. "I could not stand how people looked at me when I walked on the street," Anas said. "People were saying that my sister was not pure."

Less than one week after the rape of his sister took place, Anas confronted his tortured sister. He choked her with a rope, immobilizing her. The younger brother, the one who raped the rapist, then struck his sister repeatedly with an ax while their father observed.

"Our sister's impurity brought great dishonor to the family," Anas told me, "She had to die. Now I can walk down the street a proud man knowing that honor has been restored to my family."

Anas and his brother were sentenced to only five months in jail each for the brutal and premeditated murder of their innocent sister who was only barely a teenager.

To this day, Anas is proud of his deed. During this interview he was in a state of excited bragging, and offered details too awful to print. It speaks great volumes to the level at which this type of action is tolerated in the Islamic world, even in Jordan, a progressive Muslim state.

Post 121 by SatansMaleVoiceChoir : You've 'grown up' enough to think that forcing your values on another culture who are doing something you don't agree with is a viable solution?

I would have no compunction about forcing my values on this society, one in which incestuous raping brothers get five months in jail for raping and murdering their sisters.Had I the power, I would run roughshod over such cultures and grind them into the dust. Therein, however lies the problem: We probaly don't have the power to directly force such change. It will probably have to come from within.
__________________

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

We, of course, can do little but apply such pressures as embargoes and sanctions.

You may be underestimating the influence of global culture. People can't help but feel their culture is backward when they are connected by satellite and can see images of a US freeway while they have dirt roads and carts. It takes a while for cultural pressures to filter on down to the lowest rungs, but at other levels people are influenced when they see theirs is one of the few cultures left oppressing women. Then there is the fact the women see the images as well and see that other women are not being treated as they are, and 'gods' are not punishing everyone.

 

[TimCallahan]

You may be underestimating the influence of global culture. People can't help but feel their culture is backward when they are connected by satellite and can see images of a US freeway while they have dirt roads and carts. It takes a while for cultural pressures to filter on down to the lowest rungs, but at other levels people are influenced when they see theirs is one of the few cultures left oppressing women. Then there is the fact the women see the images as well and see that other women are not being treated as they are, and 'gods' are not punishing everyone.

These are all good points. Urbinization and industrialization will hasten the breakdown of any traditional society. However, Turkey recently experienced a spike in honor killings. Here's the opening sentences from the article (emphasis added):

A drastic rise in reported "honor" killings and fatal domestic violence in Turkey has sparked a vigorous debate about the government's recent attempts to address the problem. It also highlights the clash of conservative values with the country's rapid modernization.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Many were suggesting appropriate punishments for the parents, regardless of the fact that they face trial and punishment in their own country.

It was both.

How are we to impose these suggested punishments without force?

Saying what you believe should happen doesn't mean, one, that you also agree to impose said punishment with force or other coercion, and two, that saying so has no impact.

Not entirely. The Klan was at one time quite well represented in the Northern states. The primary assault on segregation came from the clash of the predominately urban and industrialized culture vs the predominately rural and agrarian culture. It was the shift in economic conditions which precipitated the civil rights movement. Many Southerners were also as involved in the movement (all of the black southerners, and a non-trivial percentage of whites as well).

I was making a point about a significant social change using two tiny examples. Your nitpiks totally miss the point. The point is social pressure comes from many more places than one's rural village.

But you have to remember that exposure to western culture also results in a backlash of the entrenched power structure.

Two steps forward, one step back pretty much describes typical progress of major social change.

Remember that pressure was brought from other areas of the US, but it was still the US. I...

The US, at the time, wasn't in the global village with the Internet and satellite broadcasts we now have.

Looking back historically, the Vietnam War was the first to be seen in people's living rooms. That had a huge impact. The civil rights movement was also in our homes. Now an honor killing in a remote Afghan village can be the focus of Twitterville or FaceBookistan for weeks. The impact will be felt.