Honor killing in Pakistan

[Nessie]

As far as I am concerned those who favour honour killings fail the primary test for all actions, the golden rule of how would like it if it was done to you?

I would have less of a problem if the honour killing was of the son who raped his sister, as at least then you are punishing the guilty party. But to punish the victim? That is so barbaric I have no problem justifying interfering in their culture to support campaigns to stop it. I also have no problem making those with that culture who move to Scotland understand that it will not be accepted under any circumstances.

I also say no matter what they claim about our culture, it is no where near as barbaric as theirs and it does not fail the golden rule.

I they imposed oil sanctions to get us to establish Sharia law I would impose sanctions back on them and not sell them any arms and seize all their bank accounts and assets in this country.

 

[Nessie]

It is wrong by our standards, yes. Why do these people need our help campaigning?



I have and I wish them the best of luck.



I have noticed, yes; and I have also said that not all Middle Eastern cultures support Honour Killing.

What was your point?

That we are right to say honour killings are wrong and to campaign against them.

I don't think we are that far apart in our positions, it is just about the degree to which we interfere in another culture that we disagree over.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?

One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that...

Oh, I understand it. I just don't particularly give a damn. Murder is murder.

There's a point at which cultural sensitivity becomes counterproductive, beyond which it's all honor killings and unnamed fruit.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

And you're goddamned right. Dragging the Klan into the light of modernity was the correct thing to do;

You're goddamned right it was! It was an internal American problem which the Americans sorted out when it became culturally unacceptable to the vast majority of Americans.

stopping the murder of "witches" in Africa is the correct thing to do;

Yes it is the correct thing for the relevant African Government/Leaders to do when burning witches becomes culturally unacceptable.

marginalizing honor murder is the correct thing to do.

It certainly will be the correct thing for the relevant Pakistani/Middle Eastern Government to do.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

As far as I am concerned those who favour honour killings fail the primary test for all actions, the golden rule of how would like it if it was done to you?

Correct. A very Christian ethos.

I would have less of a problem if the honour killing was of the son who raped his sister, as at least then you are punishing the guilty party. But to punish the victim? That is so barbaric I have no problem justifying interfering in their culture to support campaigns to stop it.

I agree with the first part. Once again though, you judge it to be barbaric by Western standards - and I agree - but clearly they DON'T.

I also have no problem making those with that culture who move to Scotland understand that it will not be accepted under any circumstances.

I agree - you move to Scotland and you obey the law of the land, or face the full consequences.

I also say no matter what they claim about our culture, it is no where near as barbaric as theirs and it does not fail the golden rule.

This is what you're not getting; this is YOUR point of view; one which they DO NOT share. To THEM, YOUR ways are barbaric.

I they imposed oil sanctions to get us to establish Sharia law I would impose sanctions back on them and not sell them any arms and seize all their bank accounts and assets in this country.

So you'd be unhappy if they tried to impose their values and standards on you. Got it.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Oh, I understand it. I just don't particularly give a damn. Murder is murder.

I agree. Clearly some cultures don't. You can withold as man damns as you like; it won't change the fact that to them it is not murder, but a necessary cultural obligation.

There's a point at which cultural sensitivity becomes counterproductive, beyond which it's all honor killings and unnamed fruit.

Counterproductive to what?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I don't think we are that far apart in our positions, it is just about the degree to which we interfere in another culture that we disagree over.

You are entirely correct.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I agree. Clearly some cultures don't. You can withold as man damns as you like; it won't change the fact that to them it is not murder, but a necessary cultural obligation.

Counterproductive to what?

Counterproductive to myself respecting their culture, of course. What did you expect, that I would launch a one-man invasion as some kind of Persian Batman, righting wrongs and talking in a hoarse voice?

[ETA] WHO WERE YOU LOOKING AT?!

On a less personal note, counterproductive to Pakistan's international dealings. They are part of the UN, which does have very firm views on these things, even if they only action it'll ever take is a sternly-worded reprimand.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Counterproductive to myself respecting their culture, of course.

OK. I wouldn't expect you to respect a culture that condones - or treats lightly - such a thing, and neither do I.

What did you expect, that I would launch a one-man invasion as some kind of Persian Batman, righting wrongs and talking in a hoarse voice?

I wasn't expecting that at all, no - but now you mention it, I can't think of anything else! I would PAY to see that film.

On a less personal note, counterproductive to Pakistan's international dealings. They are part of the UN, which does have very firm views on these things, even if they only action it'll ever take is a sternly-worded reprimand.

Indeed. It is up to the Pakistani Government to drive change internally. Change generally has to come from within or it will be seriously resented otherwise.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

There are organisations in Pakistan (and other affected countries) fighting against "honour" killings, and these should be supported as much as possible.

http://www.af.org.pk/mainpage.htm

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/22/the_dishonorable_defense_of_honor

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

There are organisations in Pakistan (and other affected countries) fighting against "honour" killings, and these should be supported as much as possible.

http://www.af.org.pk/mainpage.htm

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/22/the_dishonorable_defense_of_honor

Definitely. Change has to come from within, and there's no reason why we shouldn't support that; as long as we don't drive it..

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Indeed. It is up to the Pakistani Government to drive change internally. Change generally has to come from within or it will be seriously resented otherwise.

I had a long-ass post the forum ate, and I ain't about to retype it, so let me summarize: I disagree. They resent Western influence now for good reason: any pretense we had to being the good guys was traded for realpolitik a long time ago. This can be changed, but it'll be an uphill battle of overthrowing one tyrant just to let the people elect another, until they realize that Western-looking governments are not necessarily corruption-riddled puppet states.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I had a long-ass post the forum ate, and I ain't about to retype it, so let me summarize: I disagree. They resent Western influence now for good reason: any pretense we had to being the good guys was traded for realpolitik a long time ago. This can be changed, but it'll be an uphill battle of overthrowing one tyrant just to let the people elect another, until they realize that Western-looking governments are not necessarily corruption-riddled puppet states.

I think any change brought on by the outside influence of a Western Government will be resented and rejected by those culturally 'hardcore' and backward enough to think 'Honour Killing' is a viable solution to anything. I'd be willing to bet that the same cultures that produce people willing to commit suicide for 'the cause' and receive a reward in heaven would think NOTHING of 20 years in jail in order to keep the honour of their family name.

We in the West greatly underestimate - or simply cannot comprehend - how fanatical these people can be about certain aspects of their culture, I think.

 

[Resume]

We in the West greatly underestimate - or simply cannot comprehend - how fanatical these people can be about certain aspects of their culture, I think.

They're as fanatical as they allow themselves to be.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

They're as fanatical as they allow themselves to be.

Or as fanatical as their culture dictates they be.

 

[joesixpack]

There is likely to be an increase in the number of honor killings in the short term as Middle Eastern countries shift into western economic systems. As objective conditions change, familial and community structures change. Those in formerly privileged positions will become less powerful and less important. There will be reactionary responses to those changes.

Someone here suggested that dragging the Klan into the 20th century was the proper response. And while that is true, it wasn't the Chinese or the Italians who came from overseas to do it, it was done by Americans, and many of them southerners. The same is true of the Mid East. They will be dragged into the new cultural norm by themselves. Efforts to impose your values on me will generally result in my further entrenchment of my values. The Crusades didn't actually work. Sending in the Marines to "liberate" the women of the Mid East is likely to have about the same level of success.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

There is likely to be an increase in the number of honor killings in the short term as Middle Eastern countries shift into western economic systems. As objective conditions change, familial and community structures change. Those in formerly privileged positions will become less powerful and less important. There will be reactionary responses to those changes.

Someone here suggested that dragging the Klan into the 20th century was the proper response. And while that is true, it wasn't the Chinese or the Italians who came from overseas to do it, it was done by Americans, and many of them southerners. The same is true of the Mid East. They will be dragged into the new cultural norm by themselves. Efforts to impose your values on me will generally result in my further entrenchment of my values. The Crusades didn't actually work. Sending in the Marines to "liberate" the women of the Mid East is likely to have about the same level of success.

Yup - agreed. Pretty much what I'm saying.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Oh FSM, you really don't get this do you?

We get it, you just don't like our response.

You are looking at this with Western values - of course it is abhorrent to us - however to some of the Islamic faith in the Middle East, our way of life is totally repulsive to them, and killing one of their own children to satisfy honour is absolutely the right thing for them to do. You've already given examples yourself which support Honour Killings being a cultural norm.

If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!"

What part of this don't you understand?

It's not that I don't understand, it's that your position fluctuates between, it's not OK but what can anyone do short of another war, and it's OK because it's their culture, we shouldn't judge by our standards. So which is it, OK by a different but legitimate cultural value, or not OK but you see no reason to interfere, or benefit in doing so?

Regardless, I don't agree with either of your premises.

Some things are not OK on the basis of it just being another culture: child slavery, severe oppression of women, murder for superstitious or cultural beliefs, disfigurement including amputations as punishment, torture, political imprisonment, child abuse, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, abuse of the the mentally ill, rape, genocide....

Those are all beyond my moral limits regardless of my respect for cultural differences.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?

One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that...

I used to believe this naive position. I still have tremendous respect for cultural differences.

But I've grown up enough to recognize there are human limits, there is human morality and culture is not a reason to accept certain immoral things as OK.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

We get it, you just don't like our response.

No, I was addressing Nessie, and I genuinely didn't think he understood my position. Are you generally in the habit of telling people what they think, or am I just lucky?

It's not that I don't understand

That's great - I don't remember asking you if you understood though.

it's that your position fluctuates between, it's not OK but what can anyone do short of another war,

No. That's not my position.

and it's OK because it's their culture, we shouldn't judge by our standards.

Nor is this. When have I said at any time that 'it' is 'OK'? 'It' being 'Honour Killings'.

So which is it, OK by a different but legitimate cultural value, or not OK but you see no reason to interfere, or benefit in doing so?

Neither.

My position is, 'It' is not 'OK', but we should not drive change, rather support change from within.

Regardless, I don't agree with either of your premises.

Neither do I, because they weren't mine.

Some things are not OK on the basis of it just being another culture: child slavery, severe oppression of women, murder for superstitious or cultural beliefs, disfigurement including amputations as punishment, torture, political imprisonment, child abuse, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, abuse of the the mentally ill, rape, genocide....

Those are all beyond my moral limits regardless of my respect for cultural differences.

I'm not OK with any of these things either. Neither would I be OK with forcing cultural change on any society practicing any of these things. I would potentially be OK with supporting cultural change within a society where many people were calling for it.

Tell me, you know certain primitive tribes practice ritual mutilation on young men/boys as part of a 'Rite of Manhood' ceremony - it's quite horrific - how do you feel about that?