Honor killing in Pakistan

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I have shown you one way by supporting local campaigns to stop it.

yes, but HOW do they propose to stop it?

Honour killings and suppression of women is way worse than anything we get up to in our Western Culture that Muslims may not like.

Yes - by western standards. Many Muslims see what we do as much worse. Go figure.

They get upset about pineapples being labeled Mohammad.

I'm vaguely aware of that...

That is clearly different form pouring acid over and killing a daughter who brings supposed shame when she was raped by a male relative.

Yes, it is very clearly different to us. To many of them both an alleged insult to their Prophet and a daughter bringing shame upon their family are worth taking a life over. Go figure.

People in our own Western Culture thankfully stepped in and campaigned against something wholesomely evil that our culture was doing and stopped it. Slavery.

OK... so why don't we leave the Middle Eastern cultures alone and let THEM sort their own internal cultural problems out? Obviously you'd prefer they sorted out the ones that you don't like first, not the ones that they themselves consider a problem?

 

[Nessie]

Read up on their campaigns, starting with the links I provided.

What ever faults we have in our culture, many of which they happily protest and riot about, they are nothing compared to honour killings, no matter what spin you try and put on it.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Read up on their campaigns, starting with the links I provided.

What ever faults we have in our culture, many of which they happily protest and riot about, they are nothing compared to honour killings, no matter what spin you try and put on it.

Oh FSM, you really don't get this do you? I'm not trying to put a spin on anything - I'm stating a FACT.

You are looking at this with Western values - of course it is abhorrent to us - however to some of the Islamic faith in the Middle East, our way of life is totally repulsive to them, and killing one of their own children to satisfy honour is absolutely the right thing for them to do. You've already given examples yourself which support Honour Killings being a cultural norm.

If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!"

What part of this don't you understand?

 

[Resume]

If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!"

And that would be wrong of course. By the factor of a number of centuries.

Nothing wrong with dragging people a few centuries forward; if American Evangelicals can be excoriated for their retrograde behavior, so can honor killers, and battery acid splashers.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

And that would be wrong of course. By the factor of a number of centuries.

Wrong by whose standards?

Nothing wrong with dragging people a few centuries forward; if American Evangelicals can be excoriated for their retrograde behavior, so can honor killers, and battery acid splashers.

So whose standards are you using to judge if someone's culture is modern enough?

 

[Resume]

Wrong by whose standards?

So whose standards are you using to judge if someone's culture is modern enough?

The human empathy of my experience.

Honor killing bad.

Don't care if some find that offensive.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

The human empathy of my experience.

And in what culture was this experience gained and/or passed on to you?

Honor killing bad.

Don't care if some find that offensive.

Honour killing certainly IS bad by our standards. I don't care if some find that offensive either.

 

[Resume]

And in what culture was this experience gained and/or passed on to you?

Human empathy. Over thousands of years of social interaction. Now manifested in a culture that is actively attempting to limit human suffering, needless pain, and pointless murder. And sometimes pointing out why such things are bad.

I don't know what sort of gotcha moment you're looking for in this thread, but if you're hoping to find some sort of contradiction, well, that's the human condition.

Ask Whitman.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Human empathy. Over thousands of years of social interaction. Now manifested in a culture that is actively attempting to limit human suffering, needless pain, and pointless murder. And sometimes pointing out why such things are bad.

I don't know what sort of gotcha moment you're looking for in this thread, but if you're hoping to find some sort of contradiction, well, that's the human condition.

Ask Whitman.

I'm not looking for a 'Gotchya' moment; I'm simply asking you what culture you were brought up in and where you inherited your values from.

Obviously your refusal to give a straight answer indicates you know exactly what I'm getting at.

 

[Resume]

Obviously your refusal to give a straight answer indicates you know exactly what I'm getting at.

I'm giving you a straight answer; you apparently don't know what I'm getting at.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I'm giving you a straight answer; you apparently don't know what I'm getting at.

No you haven't.

I was raised in a Western culture, and all my values and standards reflect this. This is the reason why I find Honour Killings to be barbaric and wrong.

How about you, or are you going to continue with the evasion tactics?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Look, just assume he's speaking from a generic Western viewpoint and get on with it already.

 

[Resume]

No you haven't.

I was raised in a Western culture, and all my values and standards reflect this. This is the reason why I find Honour Killings to be barbaric and wrong.

How about you, or are you going to continue with the evasion tactics?

Sure, I was raised in the West.

Now what?

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Look, just assume he's speaking from a generic Western viewpoint and get on with it already.

Sure, I was raised in the West.

Now what?

So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?

One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that...

 

[Resume]

So you're having trouble understanding that someone raised in a totally different culture to yours, with completely different values and standards handed down through generations might not see anything wrong with Honour Killing? That just because YOU think it's a bad thing, they should as well?

One man's meat is another man's poison, and all that...

Honor murders are murders. As the Klan (and others) lynching blacks is murder. As is witch burning today in Africa.

Different cultures with different standards all committing murder.

Sorry if these backwards cultures are dragged into modernity. I feel all insenstive and ****.

 

[Nessie]

Oh FSM, you really don't get this do you? I'm not trying to put a spin on anything - I'm stating a FACT.

You are looking at this with Western values - of course it is abhorrent to us - however to some of the Islamic faith in the Middle East, our way of life is totally repulsive to them, and killing one of their own children to satisfy honour is absolutely the right thing for them to do. You've already given examples yourself which support Honour Killings being a cultural norm.

If it were the other way around, you'd probably be saying "It doesn't matter what spin you try and put on it - a woman out in public drinking alcohol and wearing a bikini around men is ABSOLUTELY worse than killing for the sake of family honour!"

What part of this don't you understand?

I understand all of it. I am saying it is wrong and we are right to support those people in their culture who are campaigning against honour killing.

Have you noticed that there are women in those cultures who think honour killing is wrong and are trying to stop it?

Have you noticed those who do honour kill do get punished and sent to prison at least in some cases?

It is not as if those cultures are universally for honour killing.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Honor murders are murders. As the Klan (and others) lynching blacks is murder. As is witch burning today in Africa.

Different cultures with different standards all committing murder.

Of course it's murder, by western standards. It may even be murder by certain Middle East standards, but they may be a bit more 'understanding' about the circumstances.

Sorry if these backwards cultures are dragged into modernity. I feel all insenstive and ****.

Brilliant. And people are shocked that so many Middle Eastern cultures are extremely happy to see westerners killed by hijacked planes, suicide bombs or just plain old beheadings.

"Let's just dive in and drag the fuzzy-wuzzies screaming and kicking into the light of the modern age, because they're not living how we think they should!"

I'm assuming you'd be quite understanding if groups of Middle East countries imposed oil sanctions on the West until we adopted Sharia Law, or Islamic values and standards? It would be in our best interests, surely?

 

[Resume]

Brilliant.

Thank you. Back at you.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I understand all of it. I am saying it is wrong and we are right to support those people in their culture who are campaigning against honour killing.

It is wrong by our standards, yes. Why do these people need our help campaigning?

Have you noticed that there are women in those cultures who think honour killing is wrong and are trying to stop it?

I have and I wish them the best of luck.

Have you noticed those who do honour kill do get punished and sent to prison at least in some cases?

It is not as if those cultures are universally for honour killing.

I have noticed, yes; and I have also said that not all Middle Eastern cultures support Honour Killing.

What was your point?

 

[Resume]

"Let's just dive in and drag the fuzzy-wuzzies screaming and kicking into the light of the modern age, because they're not living how we think they should!"

And you're goddamned right. Dragging the Klan into the light of modernity was the correct thing to do; stopping the murder of "witches" in Africa is the correct thing to do; marginalizing honor murder is the correct thing to do.