Really? So there were two pieces of cloth and they both have an image? Oh my.
Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud
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Why? And why can't you post the relevant information here?
For crying out lout.....How long would it take to post a link to a website? How long would it take to type out why I should care about this new topic?
Here, I'll make it simple for you:
"Dinwar,
You should care about the "Sudarium of Oviedo" because it relates to the Shroud of Turin in the folowing ways:
1)
2)
3)
--Jabba."
Fill in 1, 2, and 3. It can even be in your own words. Until you do so, I've got no reason to care--all you've given me is three words, and your credibility is completley shot so I'm not going to waste my time doing the research any competant person would present when presenting new information. I won't do your research for you, in other words.
wardenclyffe
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We finally have what should be a thread-ender here. Others will argue that we've had (what should have been) thread-enders much earlier. I've been frustrated, too. But this is just ridiculous.
Ward
gambling_cruiser
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Thread ended on page one. But nobody noticed. So we are far beyond ridiculous.
Jabba
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
- The Sudarium appears to be the face cloth from Jesus' tomb. It's just a cloth full of old blood that appears to match perfectly with the Shroud. It is documented back to the 6th or 7th century. Now will you track it down on Google? Google has all sorts of info.
- Keep in mind that I'm supposed to be working on the links that Dave brought up -- plus, I'm supposed to be working on chores in the afternoon in general...
--- Jabba
Dinwar,
- The Sudarium appears to be the face cloth from Jesus' tomb. It's just a cloth full of old blood that appears to match perfectly with the Shroud. It is documented back to the 6th or 7th century. Now will you track it down on Google? Google has all sorts of info.
- Keep in mind that I'm supposed to be working on the links that Dave brought up -- plus, I'm supposed to be working on chores in the afternoon in general...
--- Jabba
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Well, no, you're supposed to be finding a way to scientifically disprove the C14 dating. But you've found yourself unable to do this, and so have dishonestly tried to steer the conversation in a completely different and unrelated direction in the hopes that nobody will notice.
Jabba
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Guns?
Squeegee,
- The links that Dave brought up have to do with the scourge marks.
- I'm trying to use the scourge marks to show that no one could forge the Shroud in the 14th century -- but, Dave's links seem to discredit the scourge marks.
--- Jabba
Squeegee,
- The links that Dave brought up have to do with the scourge marks.
- I'm trying to use the scourge marks to show that no one could forge the Shroud in the 14th century -- but, Dave's links seem to discredit the scourge marks.
--- Jabba
Not to mention that in the time it took to write that post, Jabba could have linked to the site he thought most informative and accurate. Unless, of course, he doesn't really know anything about it beyond the shrill headlines he gets from shroudie friends and websites.
For the record, I did Google it and went to the first wiki entry (1st or 2nd result; can't remember). It's a blatantly dishonest presentation in that it flatly states that the C14 tests have been indisputably proven to have been taken from a patch not matching the rest of the shroud.
So there you go, Jabba. I took your bait and looked up your topic. It's crap. It's lies. It isn't true. It doesn't match the rest of the shroud, and if it did it would prove nothing.
So that complaint is taken care of. Now do your bit and answer the responses.
Why would there be two cloths with a face image?
Better yet, get back to the C14 data.
1. Those links were brought up ages ago, and you ignored them.
2. If you had been doing real research prior to coming to JREF you would have found those links already and evaluated them.
3. They don't "seem" to discredit the scourge marks, they "do" discredit the scourge marks.
4. Even if they didn't, it would prove nothing about the date. Nothing.
5. Focus on the C14.
I've already shown that to be a fool's errand. Flagulation was a common practice in the Middle Ages, both as punishment and as part of various religious observances. It'd have been the easiest thing in the world to whip a guy with any tools you wanted, in any fashion you wanted--some monk somewhere would think he deserved it and would volunteer. Seriously, there were books describing (in part) how to do this properly because people were doing it too much.
If he'd bothered with this this entire converstaion wouldn't have happened.Garrette said:
Sadly, I doubt that. I strongly suspect that even had Jabba found and thoroughly read all the relevant discussions and evidence surrounding the SoT that he would still have found a way to disregard the proof against his claims. Sort of like the STURP people. It is hard to believe that they don't know all the counterarguments; they simply choose to ignore them or misrepresent them so that they can maintain their belief.
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
If Jabba bothered trying to read what we write and udnerstand it, he would have long stopped scourging the shroud of a dead horse.
But he isn't. No matter what we will say , he will be utterly deaf to what we say and will make up reason to not accept it, even if it means pure libel (see McCrone).
he made his mind, and then closed it so utterly shut that nothing short of god appearing to him and telling him the shroud is a fake (and even then I am not sure).
pakeha
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I went to your linked site and lo and behold, the shrouds are wrapped and bound about the cadaver.
That they show a photo of the TS proves what, Jabba?
It's the world's most famous shroud, after all.
About the posts you refuse to read, here they are again:
Ha, character texture mapping. Indeed it was indeed that. And now that I think about it, you can probably find a lot more example on 3DS directories. The fact is that if the cloth is allowed to fall down naturally it will cover a bit of the jaw and the top and bottom of the head. You should not see a *painting* of the persons as if a photograph was taken, you should see something which is deformed all over the place. Like a mercator or similar projection. shape/angle/distance/proportion choose 1 or 2 you want to keep the other will be deformed. You cannot have a mathematical projection onto a lower degree surface and conserve everything. I seriously doubt we will see Jabba picking that up. He will still be playing law and order or something.
The hiliting is mine.
I hope that helps.
Squeegee Beckenheim
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And the scourge marks have nothing to do with the C14 dating. What you need is some peer-reviewed science.
Slowvehicle
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I'm sorry, but I must have missed it...
Would you please explain how a series of parallel marks that do not cross each other, that do not resemble the marks of any actual flogging (be careful looking THAT up on Google), and that do not consist of blood;
marks that are laid at non-anatomical angles upon a non-anatomical physically inaccurate representation of a stylized human figure;
marks that, further, appear on a cloth that WAS NOT wrapped around the anatomically impossible representation of a stylized human being in question; are, in any way, a 'smoking gun" AGAINST the 14C dates?
The Norseman
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No, you see, the shroud was in fact in two pieces but they were invisibly rewoven together to make it easier to display.
The Norseman
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LOL
And what, exactly, does this website say about the shroud of Turin itself?
"Shroud of Turin
The Shroud of Turin dates back to sometime during the Middle Ages, likely between 1260 and 1390 and is made of herringbone twill that is composed of flax fibrils, sized 14.3 ft. by 2.7 ft."
The Shroud of Turin dates back to sometime during the Middle Ages, likely between 1260 and 1390 and is made of herringbone twill that is composed of flax fibrils, sized 14.3 ft. by 2.7 ft."
Talk about cherry-picking and dishonesty...
TimCallahan
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When you speak of the Sudarium of Oviedo, you're talking about this - right? It's a browncloth with some stains on it. So, what?
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