• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Typesetting expertise is in fact crucial to any forensic document examination of any document that consists of type. Obviously.


That is just wrong. Typesetting might be important if it is alleged that a forgery is in a different type than the original. However, there are plenty of reasons it wouldn't be crucial:

- The forger may have been careful to match type, either with an identical typewriter wheel/ball or by painting in the information by hand.

- The original document might have been in more than one typeface. A government office is going to have a jumble of different machines purchased through the ages. There are any number of reasons why a clerk might have sat down at one machine, started typing, and then needed to switch to another.

- Other evidence is so overwhelming that one small detail simply is not enough to move a reasonable mind.

Conspiracists often demand that the "truth" be 100% consistent. Indeed, if human endeavors were math equations, this would be the case. Unfortunately, history is complex and chaotic. Reconstructing those conditions is often impossible. Not only is there a chance that there will be contradictory information, it's almost a certainty. That's why we have "trials" and not "proofs." It's why we "weigh" evidence. But please, continue.
 
It's the Constitution that your hero violates every second the impostor holds office.

That's rich, coming from a birther. Birthers who refuse to accept Article 4 of the United States Constitution, and try to violate anything they can as they waste the time of the courts in this country, just because the President has dark skin and a foreign sounding name.

It's you and your ilk that show no respect to the Constitution.
 
Typesetting expertise is in fact crucial to any forensic document examination of any document that consists of type. Obviously.

Care to share your expert knowledge in telling me which 1940's laser printer was used to create this document, Robert?

mitt-romney-birth-certificate.jpg
 
Typesetting expertise is in fact crucial to any forensic document examination of any document that consists of type. Obviously.

The court rejected that proposition. Obviously. How long are you going to whine about it before you learn about the legal concept of expert testimony and discuss the real reasons how and why your pseudo-expert failed?

I analyzed this at length. I will not do so again, so if you're going to make these arguments, then kindly read back to where I already refuted them before you made them.

First, while knowledge of type may be required in the forensic detection of forged documents in type, it is not sufficient to that end. The difference between necessity and sufficiency is crucial, and commonly overlooked by novices like you and Taitz. And in fact Judge Reid accepted Irey's observation that the copied type in a convenience copy downloaded from the internet appeared to differ from place to place.

However, she did not accept his insistence that such differences must be the result of the copy or its source document being inauthentic. She formed her own conclusion of fact and law, which is within the scope of the trier of fact. The determination of authenticity in documents of any kind, as an evidentiary exercise, is a separate science -- a branch of forensics. Irey has no qualification there and Taitz did not lay any suitable foundation for it. Even if he had a qualification, he did not demonstrate the validity of his method or its acceptance among typesetters, typists, or document inspectors.

It is a simple fact of trial law that an expert may not testify to things outside his scope of expertise. That his tiny area of expertise may pertain to a larger body of knowledge does not give him the expertise in that larger body.

Arithmetic is crucial in computing impact forces in an automotive collision, but it is not sufficient. The expert must demonstrate more than a knowledge of arithmetic; he must demonstrate a knowledge of the physical science models from Newtonian mechanics that prevail in crash investigation.

Second, as I belabored at length before, typesetting is not the same as typewriting. Irey's ultimate observations were about typewritten text, and he is not an expert in typewriting or typewriters. In fact the foundation he laid was that he was only as much a typist as any potential juror of a given age.
 
It's the Constitution that your hero violates every second the impostor holds office.


It is your heroes who have repeatedly tried to violate the Constitution by running a coach and horses through the Full Faith and Credit Clause.

According to the Constitution that you claiim to respect, if the relevant authority in Hawaii says he was born there, he was born there. End of story, unless you want to violate the Constitution.
 
Typesetting might be important if it is alleged that a forgery is in a different type than the original.

That's part of it. Irey did not examine a copy that had been certified to be visually identical to the alleged original, to the extent that this type of analysis was legitimate. As you well know, a copy of a birth certificate may be certified as legally probative as long as it portrays legibly the same information that is contained in the original, regardless of how it is (re)produced. Hence Mitt Romney's legally acceptable birth certificate is a computer-generated abstract, while Barack Obama has produced not only the abstract but also, by special permission, a facsimile copy. The evidence of that certification in all cases is the seal of the issuing authority, which has appeared on various forms of Barack Obama's birth certificate presented to election authorities, to the secretaries of state of interested states, and to representatives of the media.

However there is no representation from anyone that the online PDF is, in all respects, a copy of the original record that can be considered so visually faithful to the original that typographical analysis of the copy would apply also to the separate paper version used to certify the candidate's eligibility and from which the PDF purportedly derives. Specifically, the informal PDF copy contains significant artifacts attributable to a common post-process optimization step designed to reduce the size of the digital file containing a scanned document. While this optimization does not materially affect the legibility of the document, it does mean the optimized PDF would not be considered visually identical to the original copy, or even to a photographically reproduced copy, even though it retains its legitimate legal value as a true copy if presented under seal or otherwise authenticated (as has happened many, many times at the hand of the Hawaii registrar of vital records).

Paul Irey, examining this highly post-processed facsimile copy, notes differences in the appearance of typed characters that he asserts should appear identical, such as letters apparently misshaped, misplaced, or otherwise inconsistent in his opinion with the expected appearance of typed text. He proposes the theory that these inconsistencies could not arise in a legitimately typewritten document, and hence must show the document to be inauthentic and likely forged. He theorizes further that digitized samples of typewritten text were manipulated by computer programs to compose the copy of the birth certificate he examined.

However, the differences Irey notes (which, as Judge Reid notes, does not necessarily require an expert to testify to them) are attributed to forgery only in the plaintiffs' fertile imagination. They are equally and more easily attributed to the process by which the PDF was optimized. In technical terms, when a "deep" digital image is rasterized to a bitmap (i.e., a "shallow" 1-bit image), the resulting image suffers from quantization errors that materially alter the shape and position of the quantized characters.

There is absolutely no presumption that typed or typeset characters scanned as a color or grayscale document, then quantized to a 1-bit bitmap will retain the same shape in the bitmap. Yet this is the premise that Irey relies upon in his analysis. He thinks he can look at an optimized PDF and attribute differences in the shapes of characters to some sort of digital cut-and-paste forgery because type should look identical if it were a real copy. That is simply preposterous.

The forger may have been careful to match type, either with an identical typewriter wheel/ball or by painting in the information by hand.

I proposed above that the easiest way to forge a typewritten document is simply to type it. Hence Irey's proposed method makes no sense. But the trier of fact is expected to draw his own conclusion regarding the credibility of the plaintiff's theory.

The original document might have been in more than one typeface. A government office is going to have a jumble of different machines purchased through the ages. There are any number of reasons why a clerk might have sat down at one machine, started typing, and then needed to switch to another.

This would account for some, but not all of Irey's alleged inconsistencies. Most notably, Irey argues that the "R" in "BARACK" appears in a different typeface than the rest of the word, hence could not have been typed on the same typewriter as the rest of the letters. There would be no reason for a typist to switch machines in the middle of a word.

But otherwise yes, the workflow in a normal office would mean, perhaps, that one junior typist would be assigned to fill in, say, the hospital name and address in a stack of birth certificates while another typist, working on a different machine, will transcribe the personal information from handwritten applications, doctors' notes, etc.

Other evidence is so overwhelming that one small detail simply is not enough to move a reasonable mind.

Well then you're getting into the whole absurdity of the Birther claim, which is the bulk of this thread. But in the narrow context of this court case, there was almost no other information presented.

Conspiracists often demand that the "truth" be 100% consistent.

And indeed want to attribute even the least inconsistency to mind-bogglingly absurd and complex theories involving shadowy powers and massive cover-ups.

In this case there is inconsistency, and the trial judge noted the inconsistency, weighed it appropriately, and concluded there was no cause of action. But even so in this case, there are legitimate explanations for the inconsistency. In this more than many, we can give you an equation. The inconsistencies Irey notes in the typewritten text are more likely to be the result of considerable computer processing designed to reduce the size of a file not part of the candidate's chain of evidence and presented solely as a courtesy and convenience to the public.
 
It's the Constitution that your hero violates every second the impostor holds office.

It's the Constitution your heroine attempts to repudiate with every attempt to invalidate its full faith and credit clause.
 
It is your heroes who have repeatedly tried to violate the Constitution by running a coach and horses through the Full Faith and Credit Clause.

According to the Constitution that you claiim to respect, if the relevant authority in Hawaii says he was born there, he was born there. End of story, unless you want to violate the Constitution.

Fraud is never a Constitutional right, especially Fraud committed by government.
 
Fraud is never a Constitutional right, especially Fraud committed by government.

175+ courts now have ruled that there there has been no fraud committed by anyone having to do with the Obama administration, or fraud in any way having to do with his eligibility as President. This is why Birthers have had to resort to tabloids and press conferences. They have no factual or legal case and they know it. They're simply trying so very hard to be relevant.

The Constitution mandates the requirements for candidates to the President. The legislatures and courts over the past 200 years have elucidated what those requirements mean in terms of concrete productions and representations. The Constitution further governs how those productions and representations must be made, and the principal candidates for President in 2012 have both complied with the Constitutional requirements. The non-partisan officials in charge of verifying compliance, the bipartisan Congress who would impeach him and remove him from office, and the non-partisan judiciary are unanimous in their opinion, based on the evidence, that Barack Obama is qualfied to be President of the United States.

Birthers, however, desire to make up new rules that apply only to candidate Obama and not to any other candidate. These rules have no basis in Constitutional law. They have no basis in criminal law. They have no basis in facts, but instead upon the ignorant handwaving of self-proclaimed experts and patently inept lawyers. They have spectacularly failed to convince any court that these made-up rules should be enforced and have, for the most part, been laughed out of court for their ineptitude. They have incurred sanctions for improper behavior. And the behavior of a certain sheriff acting under color of law borders on actionable, if not already tortious.

No evidence of fraud, just a lot of conspiratorial handwaving.
 
The only people who have been shown to committed a fraud are the investigators who forged a birth certifciate manual, who were part of that buffon Arapios so called truth posse
 
Please stop accusing each other of having contempt for the Constitution. It is in the best spirit of our democracy to resist an unlawful presidency. At the same time, it is in the best spirit of our democracy to rely upon the Full Faith and Credit Clause. Most importantly, accusations of violating the Constitution are just too uncivil for a moderated thread and none of them are going to be approved. Ignoring a mod box warning may subject you to further moderator action.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader
 
Four More Years! Four More Years! Four More Years!


Four More Years Of This Stupid, Stupid Argument. :(
 
No. You guys win. The moderator has ruled there is to be no discussions as to alleged violations of the Constitution. Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Moderator.

I believe that Loss Leader did not want us accusing each other of violating the Constitution, and I feel that's fair enough.

There are still plenty of unanswered questions on the table, Robert.
 
No. You guys win. The moderator has ruled there is to be no discussions as to alleged violations of the Constitution. Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Moderator.


If that's what I seem to have said, then I apologize for misspeaking. I mean only to stem the accusations by members that other members had "contempt" for the Constitution. Speaking about a poster's motives for holding his/her views is off topic and uncivil.

However, a discussion of President Obama's birth, records of that birth and how or why any of it might have been tampered with is always acceptable in this thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader



Personally, it seems pretty obvious to me that any falsification of a birth inside the US would have Constitutional implications. Thus, it doesn't really help to argue that Obama should be removed from office if he were born outside the US. One still must muster up convincing evidence that he was not born in Hawaii. I, for one, would easily agree that he should be removed from office if any of this were at all anything but fantasy. I'm sure even JayUtah would agree.

The question isn't how to hook the cart to the horse. The question is whether one has a horse in the first place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom