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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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First attempt?

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/bigbabijar04.jpg

Second attempt?

http://www.fonjallaz.net/Film-Amen/Pages_Amen/babi-yar/babi-yar-3.jpg

Third time good time?

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/byalbum/pic/bigh05.jpg

I also came across this seemingly non revisionism associated blog with the following interesting information:


So it seems Johannes Hähle was not only at Babi Yar, but also at Kharkov near Dobrisky Yar, where just like in Babi Yar, 33,000 were killed in a ravine (depending on the version of both stories). A neat coincidence, I guess 33,000 is a popular figure like 6,000,000. Then there is this:


This would lead one to think that the "colour"/coloured photos were first shown to the world in an exhibition in Kiev in October 2006. Going to the wayback machine on the internet however, teaches us those very same colour photographs were on the deathcamps.org site already in May 2006.

By the way, the Germans had captured the city only one September 19, managed to hang up posters on September 28 and get a turnup of 33,000 jews the next day at the requested site, near a jewish cemetery (that won't raise suspicions or isn't a bad omen) and find a way to execute them in a place they've only just captured days ago, as well as manage the logistics of having thousands of jews stay overnight as they couldn't shoot all 33,000 in a single day? Some people may believe in German efficiency but the troubles with my Volkswagen type engine has led me to think otherwise...

Could you please for the love of God and all that is holy try READING what you spam more often.... the Haehle photos were kept back by Haehle himself, sold by his widow in 1954 then sold in 2000 to the Hamburg Institute for Social Research which was organising the 'Crimes of the Wehrmacht' travelling exhibition from 1995 onwards.

These photos appeared in the second version of the exhibition and were published in 2002 in the exhibition catalogue's 2nd edition on pages 164-5.

So quit blethering about who put them on the internet first or who said what in 2006, because they quite demonstrably were in print circulation four years earlier.

Now, the fact that YOU are wrong about this may help explain why OTHERS have been wrong about this, too.
 
Staging areas = ghettos in various cities

With respect to your contention that no genocide could have taken place due to the lack of constant rioting - I would refer you to several of the recent genocides that have taken place - the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. People of the targeted groups were quite aware that the event were taking place, but no rioting. Or are you denying those as well?

Were the victims summoned from foreign countries over a period of 3 years?

Alleged "gassings" over a period of 3 years? In camps where other inmates traverse the camp just yards away from the alleged gas chambers?
Where those other inmates play soccer against inmates from various countries and the guards just yards away from an alleged gas chamber?
Where those other inmates perform meaningful labor for the German war effort?
 
Were the victims summoned from foreign countries over a period of 3 years?

Alleged "gassings" over a period of 3 years? In camps where other inmates traverse the camp just yards away from the alleged gas chambers?
Where those other inmates play soccer against inmates from various countries and the guards just yards away from an alleged gas chamber?
Where those other inmates perform meaningful labor for the German war effort?

Clay, do you have anything more than incredulity to add to the discussion?

You have repeatedly refused to compare the Holocaust to other historical narratives about genocide, even when making claims directly relevant, such as "X is impossible, people would never...". In the very post I'm quoting, you are avoiding the question of the Rwandan and Yugoslavian genocides which were brought up by BR, as well as a question directly addressed to you about them. The only logical conclusion is that you realize doing so is detrimental to your "argument", to dignify it with the term.
 
Clay, do you have anything more than incredulity to add to the discussion?

You have repeatedly refused to compare the Holocaust to other historical narratives about genocide, even when making claims directly relevant, such as "X is impossible, people would never...". In the very post I'm quoting, you are avoiding the question of the Rwandan and Yugoslavian genocides which were brought up by BR, as well as a question directly addressed to you about them. The only logical conclusion is that you realize doing so is detrimental to your "argument", to dignify it with the term.

The difference?

Alleged genocide took place mostly outside German borders.

So called Holocaust historians accuse "everyone" of looking the other way.
The Poles, the Catholic church, the Red Cross, the US military.........

Alleged horrific brutality against babies and children was acceptable to all German soldiers who witnessed it.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the horrific brutality against babies and children in the over a period of 3 years.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the gassing, in their midst, of Jewish children, Jewish women, and Jewish men over a period of 3 years.

I'm sure Tommy1234 and Simon666 can improve my list.
 
Clayton they were a civillian population in occupied countries, they had no means to resist think that through for a minute or two.

No army to protect them nor intervene nothing.
 
The difference?

Alleged genocide took place mostly outside German borders.

This is relevant how?

So called Holocaust historians accuse "everyone" of looking the other way.
The Poles, the Catholic church, the Red Cross, the US military.........

Really? All of them?

Alleged horrific brutality against babies and children was acceptable to all German soldiers who witnessed it.

LOL. Try googling the following:

Helmut von Groscurth
von Gersdorff
von Tresckow
Lewandowski Vendel
Walter Bruns
Alfred Battel
Karl Plagge

and tell us what you find.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the horrific brutality against babies and children in the over a period of 3 years.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the gassing, in their midst, of Jewish children, Jewish women, and Jewish men over a period of 3 years.

Yes, so passive that there were revolts in
Birkenau
Treblinka
Sobibor
and escapes from Chelmno and Belzec.

So passive that substantial portions of Jews in the Netherlands, France, Belgium and Italy went into hiding or fled across borders rather than be deported.

So passive that when the last German Jewish armaments workers were rounded up for deportation in early 1943, 4000 promptly went into hiding in Berlin.

So passive that 100s of 1000s of Jews in Poland went into hiding (28,000 in Warsaw alone) or fled to the forests.

So passive that the Jews never did any of the following
Warsaw ghetto uprising
Bialystok ghetto uprising
bombing a cafe in Krakow
destroying the German garrison of Lenin in western Belarus
stopping the 20th convoy from Belgium to liberate deportees

nor did these guys exist
Bielski partisans
Fareynikte Partizaner Organizatsye of the Vilna ghetto

nor did 10,000 Jews escape the Minsk ghetto to join the partisans or hide in the forests of Belarus.

I'm sure Tommy1234 and Simon666 can improve my list.

:dl:

so when challenged to come up with your own examples, you piously hope that others can answer the question. Except we've already seen you don't know what you're talking about.
 
The difference?



  • None of those are actual differences. You're just listing unbacked claims about the Holocaust, without comparison to the relevant aspects of other genocides, much less the ones specifically brought up. I assume you know what a 'comparison' is.

    But thanks for proving my point.
 
The difference?

Alleged genocide took place mostly outside German borders.

So called Holocaust historians accuse "everyone" of looking the other way.
The Poles, the Catholic church, the Red Cross, the US military.........

Alleged horrific brutality against babies and children was acceptable to all German soldiers who witnessed it.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the horrific brutality against babies and children in the over a period of 3 years.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the gassing, in their midst, of Jewish children, Jewish women, and Jewish men over a period of 3 years.

I'm sure Tommy1234 and Simon666 can improve my list.

Alleged holocaust deniers are mostly outside German borders.

So called Holocaust historians accuse deniers of looking the other way.

Alleged denial of horrific brutality by "revisionists".

The passive reaction of "revisionists" to the horrific brutality against jews over a period of 3 years.

The denial reaction of "revisionists" to the documented and witnessed gassing, of Jewish children, Jewish women, and Jewish men that occurred over a period of 3 years.

I put it to you: I am incredulous. I believe "revisionists" / "holocaust deniers" are a hoax, because I cannot believe they exist.
 
This is relevant how?



Really? All of them?



LOL. Try googling the following:

Helmut von Groscurth
von Gersdorff
von Tresckow
Lewandowski Vendel
Walter Bruns
Alfred Battel
Karl Plagge

and tell us what you find.



Yes, so passive that there were revolts in
Birkenau
Treblinka
Sobibor
and escapes from Chelmno and Belzec.

So passive that substantial portions of Jews in the Netherlands, France, Belgium and Italy went into hiding or fled across borders rather than be deported.

So passive that when the last German Jewish armaments workers were rounded up for deportation in early 1943, 4000 promptly went into hiding in Berlin.

So passive that 100s of 1000s of Jews in Poland went into hiding (28,000 in Warsaw alone) or fled to the forests.

So passive that the Jews never did any of the following
Warsaw ghetto uprising
Bialystok ghetto uprising
bombing a cafe in Krakow
destroying the German garrison of Lenin in western Belarus
stopping the 20th convoy from Belgium to liberate deportees

nor did these guys exist
Bielski partisans
Fareynikte Partizaner Organizatsye of the Vilna ghetto

nor did 10,000 Jews escape the Minsk ghetto to join the partisans or hide in the forests of Belarus.



:dl:

so when challenged to come up with your own examples, you piously hope that others can answer the question. Except we've already seen you don't know what you're talking about.

Which has nothing to do with my post



Alleged genocide took place mostly outside German borders.

So called Holocaust historians accuse "everyone" of looking the other way.
The Poles, the Catholic church, the Red Cross, the US military.........

Alleged horrific brutality against babies and children was acceptable to all German soldiers who witnessed it.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the horrific brutality against babies and children in the over a period of 3 years.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the gassing, in their midst, of Jewish children, Jewish women, and Jewish men over a period of 3 years.
 
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I guess I was wrong; to compare something, you need to take aspects of A, and aspects of B, and say how they are similar or different. You are making claims about aspects of A, but say nothing about aspects of B.

The post you quoted in 5569, Clay, was the Doc's post 5561, in response to Simon666. Your post with the false comparison, which you just quoted, Clay, was 5564, in response to my 5563. Terry responded to you in post 5566, and I in 5567.

You seem to be having reading comprehension problems. Or perhaps chronology.
 
The difference?

Alleged genocide took place mostly outside German borders.

So called Holocaust historians accuse "everyone" of looking the other way.
The Poles, the Catholic church, the Red Cross, the US military.........

Alleged horrific brutality against babies and children was acceptable to all German soldiers who witnessed it.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the horrific brutality against babies and children in the over a period of 3 years.

The passive reaction of the Jewish inmates to the gassing, in their midst, of Jewish children, Jewish women, and Jewish men over a period of 3 years.

I'm sure Tommy1234 and Simon666 can improve my list.

Which has nothing to do with my post

You mean other than, point by point, demonstrating that you are completely ***wrong*** about everything you wrote?
 
I apologize, Clay. You merely quoted the wrong post. Nonetheless, you have still not actually compared the Holocaust to other genocides. Even the aspects you named were proven false by Terry, to which your only response was a hand-wave of his assertions and evasion of his questions. Moreover, you've been corrected on some of those exact points several times over, throughout this and other threads.

I can only speculate as to why you persist in repeating the same falsehoods.

A categorical response and rebuttal to your post, by definition, has everything to do with your post.
 
I'm new here one the forums and haven't wandered into this one before today (tried to read it all but gave up in disgust about 30 pages in), but I just want to say what good work those of you who fight against Holocaust Denial are doing. If we allow people to forget the truth ,there's always the chance that revisionists could gain a foothold, and one more mind polluted with hatred is one too many!

I wish I could nominate you all for a being awesome award somewhere!
 
I tend to post on the Sceptic Forum on this topic. I find it is like trying to argue with a stuck record that has no idea it is stuck in the same rut.

Occasionally a revisionist/denier will come out with a new idea, such as the typhus theory to account for the high use of the Kremas or no cherry red bodies reported from those gassed by CO. But the analysis of the evidence stops with evidence to support the theory. No full investigation takes place. There is no self check to see if errors have been made.
 
Could you please for the love of God and all that is holy try READING what you spam more often.... the Haehle photos were kept back by Haehle himself, sold by his widow in 1954 then sold in 2000 to the Hamburg Institute for Social Research which was organising the 'Crimes of the Wehrmacht' travelling exhibition from 1995 onwards.
That's what it says. Doesn't guarantee a word of it is true.


These photos appeared in the second version of the exhibition and were published in 2002 in the exhibition catalogue's 2nd edition on pages 164-5.
In color or not? I'm not going to spend 30 euros buying the exhibition catalogue just to find out. It also matters because forged photos and mislabeled captions are among some of the allegations against the material displayed by the Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung:


In 1993, he was employed by the Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung and became known for the controversial "Wehrmachtsausstellung" (German Army Exhibition) focused on German crimes during WWII. The Polish historian Bogdan Musial pointed out in an article published in 1999 that a number of photos that allegedly portrayed "Wehrmacht war crimes" in reality were photos of Allied (Soviet) war crimes committed by the Red Army, and also argued that around half of all photos used in the exhibition had nothing to do with war crimes.[3]The Hungarian historian Krisztián Ungváry claimed that only ten percent of all the 800 photos of alleged war crimes were actually Wehrmacht crimes, the rest were Soviet war crimes or crimes committed by Hungarian, Finnish, Croatian, Ukrainian, Russian or Baltic forces, or by members of the SS or SD, none of whom were members of the Wehrmacht, or not crimes at all[4] Military historian Rolf-Dieter Müller, Scientific Director of the German Armed Forces Military History Research Office, stated that the exhibition was deliberately misleading[5].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannes_Heer


It is also weird you claim it is there since I previously found this press release of 2000 by the very same Hamburg institute:
Ulrike Jureit described the manner in which the new exhibition will present its arguments and its documentary material with examples from the section focussing on the genocide perpetrated against the Jewish population of the Soviet Union. She went on to illustrate the new team’s critical approach to the use of photographic images with photo material from the site of the Babi Yar massacre. Uncommented series of images, which were criticized by the expert committee, will not be included in the new exhibition. The presentation will not leave it up to the interpretation of visitors to decide whether a photograph shown in the exhibition has the status of documentary evidence or serves merely as an illustration.
http://www.his-online.de/fileadmin/...taltungen/Ausstellungen/Press_Releases_VK.pdf

Let me get it clear, a simple yes or no answer will do: it is your position that on September 28 only the Germans hung out posters in a newly captured city, and in a time without Facebook or cellphones managed to reach 33.700 people (a full footballstadium) to turn up the next day for this popular event on a single streetcorner, this mass being an undoubtedly massive yet poorly documented spectacle, to be led away by foot on the outskirt of the city, to be shot in groups of ten over the course of two days, with several thousands not being unaccommodated at night and guarded by 700 or so Einsatzkommandos?
 
That's what it says. Doesn't guarantee a word of it is true.
This is a *very* interesting argument, coming from a denier.

Who then goes on to quote a very few individuals, out of hundreds of millions of historians -- most of whom either disagree or do not consider the matter worth their time.

Let us be clear, and I believe Dr. Terry will concur: this sort of "everything we thought we knew about XXX is wrong" is exactly the kind of thing that historians *live* for. These are the things that would, if true, would make an historian a part of that history we care so much about.

Now, note the the words "if true".

This is why we are so careful to double-check ourselves and others -- because if we assert something that is not true, that can be verified as not true, we become a laughingstock such as pretty much every denier is considered to be.

This is why -- this part is *important* -- we don't rely on just one source unless there is no other choice, as sometimes happens.

So, even if -- only for the sake of arguing this point about historiography -- we grant that this particular source cannot be considered reliable on this matter.

You know what?

IT ***DOESN'T*** MATTER.

Because we still have many Many MANY other sources, which all indicate the same things.

This is a point that deniers never seem to get: established history is not a house of cards. If one detail about one event is shown to be wrong, it very very seldom changes the overall picture.

So, let's say -- for the sake of argument -- these pictures did not come from the chain of sources Dr. Terry has asserted.

Does that change the reliability of, say Michael Berenbaum's relatively recent reproduction of the actual order for "Yids to report for 'resettlement'" in The World Must Know on pages 97–98?

Does it change the fact that there are absolutely *no* records of any such resettlement taking place -- not from the Nazis, not from anyone where they were resettled commenting on better than 30k people who only spoke Ukrainian suddenly appearing in their community? Does it change the reports made by the Nazis -- reports never handled by the Hamburger Institut -- talking about their surprize that the whole 'resettlement' gag had worked so well? Does is change the fact that 29 survivors of this horror have all come forward with very similar narratives about what happened that day -- despite never having known each other, and relating those narratives in ways that show they could not have known what each other were saying?

And what about the documentation regarding Sonderaktion 1005? Why was that even needed?

Tell me about your problems -- other than simply not having known about any of that before -- with the entire body of evidence (only some of which Dr. Terry or I have mentioned) and *then* you may have the beginnings of a basis from which to question whether this happened or not.

If your problems with every piece of that body of evidence are valid, I would be more than happy to co-author the book spelling them out -- as I said, that sort of thing is what an historian lives for.
Let me get it clear, a simple yes or no answer will do: it is your position that on September 28 only the Germans hung out posters in a newly captured city, and in a time without Facebook or cellphones managed to reach 33.700 people (a full footballstadium) to turn up the next day for this popular event on a single streetcorner, this mass being an undoubtedly massive yet poorly documented spectacle, to be led away by foot on the outskirt of the city, to be shot in groups of ten over the course of two days, with several thousands not being unaccommodated at night and guarded by 700 or so Einsatzkommandos?
Well, first: the notices started going up closer to the 26th, there were many Ukrainians involved in the execution (pardon the pun) of the plan who were not EK, not to mention Germans who were SD, Sipo, Shupo and SS and there are mountains of documentation.

So other than being almost completely wrong, spot on.

Second, do you think, just maybe, the fact that the non-Yids had all of the guns and that those notices explicitly said "if you don't show up, you will be shot" *might* just have played a role in the "popularity" of the process?

Not to mention that this ravine is known to have been used in the same way to kill many many other groups that just Jews by the Nazis and collaborators.

I'm not going to hold my breath that that book is ever going to be written.
 
That's what it says. Doesn't guarantee a word of it is true.
Appeal to Incredulity.



In color or not? I'm not going to spend 30 euros buying the exhibition catalogue just to find out.
Does it matter, or is it just moving goalposts?

It also matters because forged photos and mislabeled captions are among some of the allegations against the material displayed by the Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung:
I like how you're just ignoring the fact that the photos had already been released by 2002, when you made a point about them being put online in 2006.

Someone claimed some of the photos were wrong. Someone else claimed that they were deliberately misplaced. What evidence did Müller provide for his claim, and how does it indicate a conspiracy to fake the holocaust? Because faking 90% of the photos in question is, well, kinda stupid.

It is also weird you claim it is there since I previously found this press release of 2000 by the very same Hamburg institute:
Which means...what, in terms of relevance to the discussion?

Let me get it clear, a simple yes or no answer will do: it is your position that on September 28 only the Germans hung out posters in a newly captured city, and in a time without Facebook or cellphones managed to reach 33.700 people (a full footballstadium) to turn up the next day for this popular event on a single streetcorner, this mass being an undoubtedly massive yet poorly documented spectacle, to be led away by foot on the outskirt of the city, to be shot in groups of ten over the course of two days, with several thousands not being unaccommodated at night and guarded by 700 or so Einsatzkommandos?
I would bet money on this being a straw man. Several, in fact, since the claim seems to have become more elaborate than the one you made in 5548.

Your incredulity is not an argument.
 
Do you actually know about this subject Simon666? Because you could have fooled me. Your treatment of this facet of it, mirrors the denier treatment generally of the Holocaust. And jumping about from photographs to disputing the Babi Yar aktion itself by havering blethersy about facebook and cellphones is true obfuscatory <SNIP>
Edited by LashL: 
Moderated thread.
school of Historical methodology, class.

At least nine separate Historical documents refer to the murders which I'm sure Nick will be delighted to guide you through. If you did a bit of googling you can find out for yourself. Basically it is anything but "poorly documented."
 
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