The crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[Mashuna]

In taking what is good, and discarding what is evil, I have decided to discard PeaceCrusader.

 

[Agatha]

“the intercalary month which was already being inserted as necessary”? The Romans were using the Julian solar calendar. What “intercalary month”? It is just one day every four years that was being inserted by the Romans and not a month.

Not the Roman calendar, the Jewish calendar. We've done this already. Several bloody times. The intercalary month that was inserted after Adar, called Adar Beit, to keep Passover in Spring. As commanded in Leviticus.

What calendar reform did the Jews do in AD 358/359?

Prior to 325 Adar Beit was inserted only if the signs of spring were not observed - see for example:

http://7for70.net/en/?topic=calendar&id=13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_calendar (note that the Tannaitic period was from approx 10-220AD, so well before 325)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8540376#post8540376

in 325 Hillel II developed a mathematical formula to determine when Adar Beit would be inserted. Prior to that signs of spring were looked for to determine if Adar Beit was inserted, after that it was done mathematically. That is the only thing that Hillel II changed. Not the calendar itself, but just the way that the intercalary month was calculated.

Adar Beit, the intercalary month, was inserted every two to three years from the time of the Exodus, i.e. from 1400 BC or thereabouts. Prior to 325 it was inserted if certain signs of spring were not observed, after 325 it was inserted according to Hillel II's mathematical model.

I am correcting Christianity

So you are setting yourself up as greater than your God? I really don't think that's a wise thing to do. If you believe in God and Jesus then you need to develop a little humility. I don't think your God approves of the sort of arrogance and false witness that you are displaying.

especially on the date when Jesus was born – May 23 – and the date when Jesus was crucified and died – August 17. The dates were revealed by the spirit of Ama. I only checked them out whether they are true or not. Please recheck what I did. The results are on the Internet: http://aristean.org/birthmay23.htm and http://aristean.org/crucifyidx.htm . Present any discrepancy that you find and we will discuss it in this forum.

I've checked and rechecked your nonsense and shown it for the fiction that it is over several threads already. Ama is not a reliable source as 'he' has not made one single correct pronouncement yet. Ama's understanding of history, the intercalary month, calendars, Judaism, human nature, biology, zoology and geography have all been shown by many posters to be fatally flawed.

Now you are trying to propose that Steven Frayne (Dynamo) can do real magic rather than tricks. He doesn't. He does tricks and illusions. He would laugh at you for believing that his illusions were real.

 

[LaurelHS]

It is the same Jesus Christ, the Messiah, that I am talking about.

Okay. Would you care to talk about how "Ama" let people touch the Messiah's wounds? What exactly did this involve?

 

[Astreja]

I am correcting Christianity...

Heeheeheeheehee!

Arrogance, thy name is Aristeo Canlas Fernando.

 

[SezMe]

Are ALL of my claims proven to be false?
<snippity-snip>

Well done, PeaceCrusader! You began by nit-picking and proceeded to ignore every one of my questions. Yes, every one. All you did was try to defend the minutia you have been going on about in this whole thread. I asked you not to do that.

I asked what you have learned not to rehearse what you have not learned. I asked for your reaction about the research and information sources that have been shown to you. In short, I asked you to discuss the thread as a whole and your reaction to it.

Here, I'll give you an example of a brief summary:

In this thread, PC opened with a discussion of the data of Jesus' crucifixion. Subsequently, he has taken us through many different claims about that and related events. The common thread that I can see is that he uses the bible and Ama to justify all his conclusions. He has been shown that his claims are in error by numerous posters including Agatha, pakeha, Astreja, Meadmaker and many others (sorry if I left out important voices). These ripostes have used a wide variety of sources for backup.

PC has remained impenetrable in face of this work. I am unsure if he simply ignores the evidence or if he is really, fundamentally incapable of dealing with reality.

And I'll give you an example of what I've learned - or at least been reminded of.

I've made a number of posts in these here fora based on stuff I've read somewhere else. I've never lied but I've taken claims elsewhere at face value and repeated them here. This thread is an outstanding demonstration that this is just foolhardy. I need to do better.

On a purely factual basis, I've learned about the bible, fig trees, calendars, Jewish holidays and asses. Especially asses.

-----------------------------

There, PC. Now you try it again. Don't rehearse old myths; give us an overview of this thread and your reaction to it.

 

[Meadmaker]

Like what Ama said, “It is easier to believe in something that is wrong than what is right.”

Indeed.

You are familiar with the Jewish traditions. When should be the five fasts be? Could you please cite the verses that tell us when they happened?

I don't know from memory, and I don't feel like looking it up. Modern Jews tend to fast only at Yom Kippur, in the 7th month, now known as Tishri.

Some Jews keep the Fast of Esther on the day before Purim, in Adar, which is not on the anniversary of Esther's fast, which occurred in Nisan.

Other than that, I don't know.

However, if you do know, and it somehow gives evidence that the Jews ever used a purely lunar calendar with rotating holidays, I would be fascinated to hear it.

Somebody asked Ama what kind of leaves does a fig tree have. He said that they are broad and big. Is that correct?

When I googled fig trees, I only looked at when they had leaves, not what sort they had. However, "broad and big" wouldn't be a very impressive answer even if it happened to be correct.

For the sake of Adam and Eve, one could hope that the leaves were broad and big.

I believe that Mark 11:13, which states, “for the time of figs was not yet”, was just added when Passover was moved to around the vernal equinox in AD 325. This is the second part that I say were added or changed.

Ahh...ok. Those Constantinians were awfully clever.

When could the colt have been born: in spring, summer, autumn or winter? According to the link that I got, it is about spring when the foal can avail of the abundant grass. I don’t think the foal would be born in summer or autumn because the grass may not be as abundant and tender as in spring. And not in winter because it is rainy in Jerusalem when the foal may catch bronchitis or pneumonia and die. The colt maybe one, two, three, or four years old and still be called a foal or a colt. When was it born? Most likely, in spring.

But.....if it were four years old, why would the season of its birth lend any evidence to a theory about what season the Palm Sunday entry into Jerusalem occurred?

 

[Meadmaker]

Prior to 325 Adar Beit was inserted only if the signs of spring were not observed - see for example:

http://7for70.net/en/?topic=calendar&id=13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_calendar (note that the Tannaitic period was from approx 10-220AD, so well before 325)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8540376#post8540376

in 325 Hillel II developed a mathematical formula to determine when Adar Beit would be inserted. Prior to that signs of spring were looked for to determine if Adar Beit was inserted, after that it was done mathematically. That is the only thing that Hillel II changed. Not the calendar itself, but just the way that the intercalary month was calculated.

Adar Beit, the intercalary month, was inserted every two to three years from the time of the Exodus, i.e. from 1400 BC or thereabouts. Prior to 325 it was inserted if certain signs of spring were not observed, after 325 it was inserted according to Hillel II's mathematical model.

I believe, although I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment, that this reform occurred in 358, not 325.

325 was the Council of Nicea, at which no calendar reform occurred, although PeaceCrusader thinks the Bible was modified at that time. The date for Easter was set at that council, and PC thinks Hillel II was somehow reacting to the Christians setting a date for Easter when he instituted his calendar reform.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

PC, why do you quote the bible?
You set it aside to accommodate the utterances of a medium, a medium so wicked as to fool people into thinking they are touching the wounds of Jesus.


PC, haven't you noticed every element you try to use to buttress your calendar falls flat?
The temperature, the fig tree and now this idea about the donkey have all left your speculation Passover was celebrated in August more untenable than before.

Do you know who the “medium” is? We call her Ka Apaz. Her full name is Maria Liwayway Alvaran. According to Ama, and I believe Him, she is the woman referred to in the Holy Bible, Matthew 24:41 and Luke 17:35. Matthew 24:41 states:”Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” “Grinding at the mill” means working at the mill to powder the seeds. Who is taken? The Blessed Virgin Mary. Who is the other left? I believe, it is the spirit that is in Ka Apaz now. This spirit, according to Ama, was taken from the blood vessel of the heart of the Blessed Virgin Mary (“hinugot at kinuha na ugat ng puso ni Maria”; 16th paragraph of http://aristean.org/pahayag002.htm ). I believe that this spirit must have a name. And the name is Reneliniyindi, the first human being in whom the spirit first resided. Reneliniyindi was an Egyptian princess, I think, during the first century AD. When she died during her marriage to Philip I, her spirit was transferred to another human being, and so on, which we call reincarnation.

Today, in my search, I think Reneliniyindi is Cleopatra of Jerusalem married to Philip. We have to know more about what happened to Cleopatra of Jerusalem and Philip. Ama said the very first Philip. I do not know if Herod Philip I is related to Philip II of Spain from whom the name Philippines was derived.

The wounds is not superficial wound but you can poke through it that you can even feel the bones.

Why is there a man without any underwear and just covered with linen cloth following Jesus when He was arrested at the Garden of Gethsemane (Mark 14:51-52)? Was it cold at the Garden that Peter was warming himself (Mark 14:67; Luke 22:56; John 18:25) at Jerusalem?

 

[AdMan]

While you keep your inane threads alive on this forum and continue with your hypocrisy, I will keep reminding you and everyone else of your lies, Aristeo, until you address them.

Just remember, Jack by the hedge, abaddon, and others, to always say the truth.

Says the poster who LIED to the members of this forum when he said he would denounce Ama/Ka Apaz as a false prophet if the Olympic Games prediction failed to come true and that he would stop discussing her prophecies on the Internet.

 

[Astreja]

Do you know who the “medium” is? We call her Ka Apaz. Her full name is Maria Liwayway Alvaran.

From the information you have posted here, Aristeo, I think that Maria Liwaywan Alvaran is a shameless scam artist who has led you into a very, very bad place both intellectually and morally.

...The Blessed Virgin Mary...

IMO, "Mary" was never a historical personage. She is a bowdlerized version of the Queen of Heaven, stripped of Her godly powers to satisfy the misogyny of the Yahwist cultists.

I believe that this spirit must have a name. And the name is Reneliniyindi, the first human being in whom the spirit first resided. Reneliniyindi was an Egyptian princess, I think, during the first century AD. When she died during her marriage to Philip I, her spirit was transferred to another human being, and so on, which we call reincarnation.

Today, in my search, I think Reneliniyindi is Cleopatra of Jerusalem married to Philip...

Ah, so you believe in reincarnation, then, Aristeo?

Perhaps I'm actually the reincarnation of Jesus, then, and that's why all My prophesies come true. Or perhaps I'm actually the real goddess behind the Mary story. I think you owe it to yourself to give this matter some serious consideration.

The wounds is not superficial wound but you can poke through it that you can even feel the bones.

No problem. Take a piece of steak, slash it with a knife, and hide the bone from a turkey leg inside it. But don't let anyone actually see the wound; just let them feel around in the muck and blood.

Back in the '60s, when I was living in Montreal, people running pretend Houses of Horror at Hallowe'en would craft similar icky fake wounds to gross out the kids. I seem to remember that chicken livers figured prominently in this ruse.

Why is there a man without any underwear and just covered with linen cloth following Jesus when He was arrested at the Garden of Gethsemane (Mark 14:51-52)? Was it cold at the Garden that Peter was warming himself (Mark 14:67; Luke 22:56; John 18:25) at Jerusalem?

I don't think the man in the linen cloth is real. I think he's just a character in a fictional story.

But does it even matter any more, Aristeo? Facts don't appear to faze you. You're more concerned with asserting ad nauseum that you're absolutely, incontrovertibly right, in total disregard of any and all facts we may present to you. Even if we could demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt in a court of law that we were right and you were wrong, I suspect that you would still insist that you were right, and that the judge and jury were therefore wrong too.

The main reason I continue to engage you at all is that you have said some truly dreadful, shameful things that I feel must be publicly criticized at every turn.

 

[SezMe]

The wounds is not superficial wound but you can poke through it that you can even feel the bones.

I mostly want you to respond to my post #845 but I can't let this go by.

WHY do you want to stick your hand in a supposed wound? What would you learn (assuming that word is in your dictionary). If I had a huge wound in my side I sure as hell wouldn't want a bunch is loons sticking their hands in it. Does your asserted Jesus care about your shoving your digits into his guts?

 

[Shiner]

Do you know who the “medium” is?

Every one with a passing interest in this thread knows exactly who and what the ""medium"" is . An old blind lady called Maria who is scamming you. How much do people pay to see this woman?

...... which we call reincarnation.

So the bible allows for reincarnation?

Today, in my search, I think Reneliniyindi is Cleopatra of Jerusalem married to Philip. We have to know more about what happened to Cleopatra of Jerusalem and Philip. Ama said the very first Philip. I do not know if Herod Philip I is related to Philip II of Spain from whom the name Philippines was derived.

So why is there no historical record of this Reneliniyindi? Fairytales.

The passage about the women at the mill, that you keep repeating over and over, even though you are constantly asked not to, is Jesus' story of his "Second coming". An event that is yet to occur. Why would his mother be working at a mill ~2000 years in the future?

The wounds is not superficial wound but you can poke through it that you can even feel the bones.

Chicken carcass. I'll bet its covered with a cloth. Hey? Hey? Amirite?

Why is there a man without any underwear and just covered with linen cloth following Jesus when He was arrested at the Garden of Gethsemane (Mark 14:51-52)? Was it cold at the Garden that Peter was warming himself (Mark 14:67; Luke 22:56; John 18:25) at Jerusalem?

The passage refers to servants warming themselves by the fire as the rooster crows. Pre-dawn, arid environment, pre-dawn chill. I'd go so far as to say it was the cooking fire being stoked up for breakfast at the noble womans house. Garden/Courtyard, entranceway, plenty of clues there. Just got out of bed, getting ready for the days work, wearing the loincloth (working clothes) coz it was gonna get hot shortly.

 

[HansMustermann]

Okaaay, let's talk about the nekkid guy at Jesus's arrest. Because God knows we need more obsessing about nekkid guys

The thing is, Israel is relatively down south. By April it's already summer. In Jerusalem specifically, the average temperature in April is 16C (60F), but it can go all the way up to 21C (70F). Source, for example: http://www.holiday-weather.com/jerusalem/averages/april/

Even in March, the average is 12C (53F), but high temperatures can go up to 16C (61F).

There is plenty of room even in March for a warm evening where that's entirely possible, and in April it's more like the norm.

A bit chilly, maybe, but there are people who go around in T-shirts at 60F. And doubly so at 70F. In fact, some coworkers start their air conditioning even below 70F. And I've seen women a lot more exposed than a linen wrap at 70 F.

So basically give it a rest with the nonsense that it had to be August for that guy not to freeze. We're talking Jerusalem in Israel, not Toronto in Canada or Anchorage in Alaska, you know? I don't know whatever gave you the idea that it's some frozen arctic place, but it ain't.

ETA: As for Peter warming himself up, look at the chronology there. The little drama has been going on all night by this point, and the rooster is crowing. Especially if it was a clear sky, the temperature would have dropped a fair bit by then. But in the evening and early night it would still be ok for light clothing.

Plus, there is more than a bit of variation in people's temperature preferences. I put on a sweater at temperatures where a few co-workers turn on the air conditioning. And I know a couple of people who make a point of going out to smoke in just a shirt in frikken January, even at temperatures like -10C (14F). Bragging about one's resistance to cold and making sure to be seen wearing light clothing even in winter, is not an uncommon thing.

 

[Astreja]

So the bible allows for reincarnation?

And why would a god bother to create a "hell" for souls that reincarnate? (Putting aside for the moment the question of why a god would create a hell at all, which is an entirely different bit of mythic silliness)

 

[Shiner]

And why would a god bother to create a "hell" for souls that reincarnate? (Putting aside for the moment the question of why a god would create a hell at all, which is an entirely different bit of mythic silliness)

Yep, I asked myself the same question. Maybe reincarnation is only for the good chri$tians....oh, wait.

Some interesting reading in Matthew. I haven't looked at the bible since high school(25years ago), when I would argue the veracity with my school teachers. I promised myself I wouldn't do it again. D'oh.

Anyway, in case PC actually reads our posts, I've got a few points to make.

Matthew 24, bits in bluewoo. (King James Version, of course)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.

I think what he's saying here is you're in deep poo, PC.
The end of the verse spells it out clearly.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.




This is my favourite bit. Did you miss this one PC?

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Summer is coming when the fig tree has leaves. Who'd have thought?

 

[sleepy_lioness]

I like the nekkid man with the linen cloth. He's been the subject of minor scholarly controversy in recent years, with the debate over the alleged 'Secret Gospel of Mark' (I, and most scholars, think it's a fake, but never mind), which contains the rather suggestive lines:

And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, 'Son of David, have mercy on me.' But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Gospel_of_Mark

 

[Shiner]

<..snip>..And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.

Sounds like the makings of a church.

 

[Mojo]

I have no idea what this is about, but there is no location in England that is 8 hours away from the nearest city unless you are talking about walking.

I had a car like that once...

 

[pakeha]

...I am correcting Christianity especially on the date when Jesus was born – May 23 – and the date when Jesus was crucified and died – August 17. The dates were revealed by the spirit of Ama. I only checked them out whether they are true or not. Please recheck what I did. The results are on the Internet: http://aristean.org/birthmay23.htm and http://aristean.org/crucifyidx.htm . Present any discrepancy that you find and we will discuss it in this forum.

Your corrections are based on the revelations imparted during a seance.
A seance at which you were not present, nor of which any recording exists.
During these seances, you were given a lot information involving floating nails, golems, fictitious Egyptian princesses, imaginary giantesses and so on.

Rather than laugh off this foolishness, you've invested years into constructing a calendar system, one which depends on:
Passover not being celebrated in the Spring
Mark being rewritten to cover up a major calendar change
and last but not least,
reincarnation

I repeat, have you taken your calculations and theories to any Jewish authorities to discuss your premise of a dual calendar and the possibility of Passover having been celebrated in August?
If not, why not?

...I say that from the Babylonian exile in the 7th century BC until the Jews reformed their calendars in AD 358/359, they were using two kinds of calendars – a purely lunar calendar and a lunisolar calendar. ...

What collaboration have you of this?
Please reread Agatha's post:

Not the Roman calendar, the Jewish calendar. We've done this already. Several bloody times. The intercalary month that was inserted after Adar, called Adar Beit, to keep Passover in Spring. As commanded in Leviticus.

Prior to 325 Adar Beit was inserted only if the signs of spring were not observed - see for example:

http://7for70.net/en/?topic=calendar&id=13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_calendar (note that the Tannaitic period was from approx 10-220AD, so well before 325)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8540376#post8540376

in 325 Hillel II developed a mathematical formula to determine when Adar Beit would be inserted. Prior to that signs of spring were looked for to determine if Adar Beit was inserted, after that it was done mathematically. That is the only thing that Hillel II changed. Not the calendar itself, but just the way that the intercalary month was calculated.

Adar Beit, the intercalary month, was inserted every two to three years from the time of the Exodus, i.e. from 1400 BC or thereabouts. Prior to 325 it was inserted if certain signs of spring were not observed, after 325 it was inserted according to Hillel II's mathematical model.

So you are setting yourself up as greater than your God? I really don't think that's a wise thing to do. If you believe in God and Jesus then you need to develop a little humility. I don't think your God approves of the sort of arrogance and false witness that you are displaying.

I've checked and rechecked your nonsense and shown it for the fiction that it is over several threads already. Ama is not a reliable source as 'he' has not made one single correct pronouncement yet. Ama's understanding of history, the intercalary month, calendars, Judaism, human nature, biology, zoology and geography have all been shown by many posters to be fatally flawed.

Now you are trying to propose that Steven Frayne (Dynamo) can do real magic rather than tricks. He doesn't. He does tricks and illusions. He would laugh at you for believing that his illusions were real.

While bringing mr Frayne's performance into the discussion is possibly less to the point than that of donkey breeding, it does provide a reason to turn to one of the more interesting characters of the NT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus

Do you know who the “medium” is? We call her Ka Apaz. Her full name is Maria Liwayway Alvaran. According to Ama, and I believe Him, she is the woman referred to in the Holy Bible, Matthew 24:41 and Luke 17:35. Matthew 24:41 states:”Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” “Grinding at the mill” means working at the mill to powder the seeds. Who is taken? The Blessed Virgin Mary. Who is the other left? I believe, it is the spirit that is in Ka Apaz now...

PC, as has been pointed out, those passages refer to the Second Coming.
Do you understand that?

...Reneliniyindi was an Egyptian princess, I think, during the first century AD. When she died during her marriage to Philip I, her spirit was transferred to another human being, and so on, which we call reincarnation.

Today, in my search, I think Reneliniyindi is Cleopatra of Jerusalem married to Philip. We have to know more about what happened to Cleopatra of Jerusalem and Philip. Ama said the very first Philip. I do not know if Herod Philip I is related to Philip II of Spain from whom the name Philippines was derived.

PC, once again with this foolishness?
We've established when the first Philip was, remember?
Now you want to change Reneliniyindi's name and family history?

...Take a piece of steak, slash it with a knife, and hide the bone from a turkey leg inside it. But don't let anyone actually see the wound; just let them feel around in the muck and blood.

Back in the '60s, when I was living in Montreal, people running pretend Houses of Horror at Hallowe'en would craft similar icky fake wounds to gross out the kids. I seem to remember that chicken livers figured prominently in this ruse..

And cold, cooked pasta, IIRC.
I notice PC hasn't answered my questions about Maria Liwayway Alvaran's possible experience with 'psychic surgery'.
The disgusting trick pulled on these unfortunate followers of hers certainly smacks of the sort of fraud perpetrated by these scammers, doesn't it?

 

[Agatha]

I am so sorry, I was a little tired (and refreshed) last night, and in my post #842 I referred to the year 325 when it should have been 358/9 for Hillel II's calendar reform. I wrote 325 and just kept writing it without checking. I do apologise. The substance of the post remains accurate, but the dates are in error.