Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[zooterkin]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8735406#post8735406

Nothing, then?

 

[Straw Man]

Clayton, speaking of current things, where's the copy of the most recent copy of Ron Paul's doctoring licence, as you use him in support of your argument.

Surely he can't be last century? That would never do.

 

[pakeha]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8735406#post8735406

Sorry, CM, I really don't get it.
Could you explain what you mean to say, please?

 

[000063]

Clayton doesn't even read the things he asks us to look at.

He once claimed Hitler did not do X, and then quoted a Wikipedia article that clearly said Hitler did X. When someone pointed it out, he said "nuh-uh" and quoted another section of the exact same Wikipedia page. Then he ran away from the thread for a while. At no point has he ever admitted he was wrong.

You complained about information on the CDC website, so I found you some data from outside of the US. Are you now complaining about data from outside the US?

If you want something more recent, there's a meta analysis from 2007: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17400342 but I'm afraid it's from Germany so perhaps you will dismiss it for being from outside the US.

Clay has done this exact thing before. I'm pretty sure he's invented some sort of Heisenberg uncertainty goalposts.

Sorry, CM, I really don't get it.
Could you explain what you mean to say, please?

No.

 

[pakeha]

More about the uncertainty relative to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=heisenbergs-uncertainty-principle-is-not-dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

In any case, I'm still confused about how autism can be caused by vaccines.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG3mWgsMt-A&feature=watch-vrec

All these lying teenage girls and their parents. For shame.

 

[pakeha]

Oh, CM, you DID get to the point in the report where the physicians who'd hinted to those unfortunate girls and their families that Gardasil was a contributing factor to their tragic conditions refused to say so on camera?

Anyway, this thread is about the vaxx/autism connection, IIRC?

 

[Tomtomkent]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG3mWgsMt-A&feature=watch-vrec

All these lying teenage girls and their parents. For shame.

What are their medical qualifications?


I seem to sense a pattern between the people you hope to convince us with and a lack of medical qualifications. Care to buck the trend?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Anyway, this thread is about the vaxx/autism connection, IIRC?

No.

Quote:

The proof of the pudding that there are conspiracies at high levels of society is media's insistence that there are NONE.

Let's see. Big pharma and the mainstream media insist vaccines are absolutely safe but close to NONE of the vaccines are tested with a control group. They have convinced much of the American public that questioning the safety of vaccines is criminal.

Yet commercial after commercial airs up front and personal that if you've taken DRUG X, Y, or Z contact my law firm. Now you know those drugs, I think ZOLOFT is the star of the newer ripe for litigation drugs, were supposed to be tested with a control group! What happened.

And the media pretty much crucifies anyone who dares suggest a link between autism and vaccines. Why would the media trust and speak out for an industry/community with such a poor drug testing track record?

 

[dafydd]

No.

Yes. Wrong again.

 

[zooterkin]

Let's see. Big pharma and the mainstream media insist vaccines are absolutely safe

No, really, they don't. Vaccines are vastly safer than the alternative, but there are risks. I had a 'flu vaccination the other week, and I was given a very detailed warning about possible side effects.

 

[jdc324]

No.

Quote:

The proof of the pudding that there are conspiracies at high levels of society is media's insistence that there are NONE.

Let's see. Big pharma and the mainstream media insist vaccines are absolutely safe but close to NONE of the vaccines are tested with a control group. They have convinced much of the American public that questioning the safety of vaccines is criminal.

Yet commercial after commercial airs up front and personal that if you've taken DRUG X, Y, or Z contact my law firm. Now you know those drugs, I think ZOLOFT is the star of the newer ripe for litigation drugs, were supposed to be tested with a control group! What happened.

And the media pretty much crucifies anyone who dares suggest a link between autism and vaccines. Why would the media trust and speak out for an industry/community with such a poor drug testing track record?

There's some real gems in there Clayton (for instance, the insistence that a denial is proof of existence). The second bolded bit is my favourite though. The media crucifies anyone who dares to suggest a link? Really? Really really?

That would be the same media who fawned over Wakefield and stoked his scaremongering would it?

http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/

And this was not a passing trivial moment in a 10-year-long story. 2002 was in fact the peak of the media coverage, by a very long margin. In 1998 there were only 122 articles on MMR. In 2002 there were 1,257 (from here). MMR was the biggest science story that year, the most likely science topic to be written about in opinion or editorial pieces, it produced the longest stories of any science subject, and was also by far the most likely to generate letters to the press, so people were clearly engaging with the issue. MMR was the biggest and most heavily covered science story for years.
It was also covered extremely badly, and largely by amateurs. Less than a third of broadsheet reports in 2002 referred to the overwhelming evidence that MMR is safe, and only 11% mentioned that it is regarded as safe in the 90 other countries in which it is used.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/dec/11/science.highereducation

Anyway, by June 2002 we've pretty much got to our destination. Justine Picardie does a photo feature on Wakefield, his house, and his family, for the Daily Telegraph Saturday Magazine. Andy is, she tells us, "a handsome, glossy-haired hero to families of autistic children".

Then there's Dr Richard Halvorsen, who has claimed that autism “is one of several immune system disorders, such as diabetes and asthma, that have been linked to vaccines” in a book he wrote called "The Truth About Vaccines". How did the media treat him? Did they "pretty much crucify him"? Well, no. They invited him to write articles on vaccination (the Daily Mail, The Times) and quoted him as an expert in articles (Sunday Express). They didn't crucify him, they employed him.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Oh, CM, you DID get to the point in the report where the physicians who'd hinted to those unfortunate girls and their families that Gardasil was a contributing factor to their tragic conditions refused to say so on camera?

That would mean they depend on vaccine income?

 

[Dcdrac]

Clayton that means nothing

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, really, they don't. Vaccines are vastly safer than the alternative, but there are risks. I had a 'flu vaccination the other week, and I was given a very detailed warning about possible side effects.

Did you ask the doctor what caused the side affects?

 

[dafydd]

Did you ask the doctor what caused the side affects?

You missed the word ''possible''.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You missed the word ''possible''.

Yeah sure.

It's not a trick question. They are side effects when they happen.

Did you ask the doctor what causes the side effects?

 

[000063]

That would mean they depend on vaccine income?

Dodge.

You've already asserted that all physicians are lying. You've also asserted that there are studies being done into vaccines by doctors. Million dollar question you will not answer; if vaccines were reasonably safe, how would the doctors act? More specifically, how would it differ from how they're acting now?

Yeah sure.

It's not a trick question. They are side effects when they happen.

Did you ask the doctor what causes the side effects?

Irrelevant. You said doctors say vaccines are perfectly safe. This has been proven objectively wrong. In fact, the fact that the doc warned him about it, implicitly of his own volition, wrecks your 'argument'. Leave the goalposts alone.

 

[dafydd]

Yeah sure.

It's not a trick question. They are side effects when they happen.

Did you ask the doctor what causes the side effects?

I didn't go to the doctor for a 'flu shot, that was somebody else. Do try to keep up.

 

[zooterkin]

Yeah sure.

It's not a trick question. They are side effects when they happen.

Did you ask the doctor what causes the side effects?

No; why would I?

As 000063 says, it's totally irrelevant. You stated that doctors claimed that vaccinations are "absolutely safe". I pointed out that, in fact, they don't. I still have the leaflet about the possible side effects on my desk at work. If you really don't believe me, I can scan it next week.