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2012 Debates

lol, so what? Is that really the best you got? "He wasn't specific enough in labelling it a terrorist attack!". Puh-lease. :rolleyes:
Perhaps Republicans would have preferred, considering the lack of empirical data at the time and using the Bush doctrine, Obama begin bombing followed by a prolonged land war, killing lots of people.
 
So what exactly was Romney's criticism?

He was technically wrong (that Obama did refer to it as a terrorist action the day after the attack), but he was right that the administration couldn't discern for sure whether it was a planned attacked or part of spontaneous protests against the film.

So?

Is Romney criticizing Obama for not being omniscient? Does Romney think Obama should have said something in certain terms when he wasn't yet certain?

Or is he claiming that he, as President Romney, would have been able to get this information faster than the existing intelligence apparatus could?

Exactly what is Romney's point, and exactly what would he have done differently?

You only quoted the first point of my post, the second part answers your questions. Look it was a matter of semantics and Romney's point was to show the ineptitude of the Obama administration (as he sees it, I personally don't agree) for not knowing within 12 hours all of the facts. But, Romney screwed up, focused on a cluster of words that he assumed the President had not said, and got *****-slapped when he went into attack dog mode.

I think Romney and the right are stupid to keep trying to play this card. What happened there has nothing to do with actions by Obama. If they really try and play the "Obama is weak on terrorism/out of touch" card in the next debate, they are going to be steam-rolled.
 
Except that he didn't. He spoke generically about terrorism, but did not actually label the attack itself as a terrorist attack.

Riiiight. In the middle of speaking specifically about the Beghazi events, the segment where he referred to "acts of terror" was actually where he stopped referring to those events and spontaneously talked about completely unrelated subjects. :rolleyes:
 
Except that he didn't. He spoke generically about terrorism, but did not actually label the attack itself as a terrorist attack.

Who is "he"? What "attack" are you talking about? How do you know this unnamed person has never labeled the unnamed attack "terrorism"? You are so nonspecific in your individual sentences there is no way to assess their accuracy.

/appliedZiggurating
 
Too long compared to what?

Too long compared to when the government actually had the information to reach the right conclusion.

Should he have said it was certainly a planned attack before he was sure it was?

If he didn't know, then he should have formed a consistent message about that uncertainty. But he didn't. Rice was running around blaming it on the YouTube video. That was hardly the model of restraint you're trying to imply the administration took. And yes, Obama is responsible for what she said.

Could we expect a President Romney to act before having the information?

Why did it take over a week for him to get that information? Why wasn't he knocking on the CIA's door? Why wasn't he knocking on the state department's door? Why wasn't he up on the latest? It didn't take the CIA two weeks to figure out what happened, and State now says that they never claimed there was a spontaneous protest. So why didn't Obama know what they knew?

Oh, that's right... he was busy campaigning.
 
Who is "he"? What "attack" are you talking about? How do you know this unnamed person has never labeled the unnamed attack "terrorism"? You are so nonspecific in your individual sentences there is no way to assess their accuracy.

/appliedZiggurating

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Edited for civility.
 
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I suspect he was distracted worrying about missing his scheduled fundraiser in Las Vegas.
Your suspicion makes zero sense. It's rank speculation. It appears to be ad hoc rationalization in an attempt to preserve a preconceived bias.

What's your thought?
My thought is that the parsimonious answer is the correct answer (as it usually is). He talked about terrorism because he was talking about Libya which was a possible or probable terrorist attack. We don't need to speculate as the explanation is coherent and fits all available evidence.

Of course, one needs to take into account that this is a skeptics forum and not a conspiracy theory forum. If you keep that in mind I think you will find reasoning easier and you will be more successful in the long run.
 
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What's the big deal about using the word "terrorist" anyway? Does that somehow make the attack more evil or our outrage more justified?

And really, this opens up a can of worms again as to what "terrorist" means. For many, it means one who uses attacks on innocent bystanders and non-combatants. Well, technically, ambassadors are non-combatants, however, they are agents of a foreign government. I'm not at all saying this justifies the attack, but this is different from driving a car full of explosives into a marketplace or shooting a fourteen-year-old girl.

Again, this was a totally unjustified attack and we should continue to hunt the perpetrators, but this "if you don't call it terrorist you are weak on terror" meme is just ridiculous.
 
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Edited for civility.

Edited by LashL: 
Edited response to moderated content.


The point remains. Your claim requires the reader to ignore all context in Obama's speech.
 
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There's a bit of a problem with this position: under US law, terrorism requires premeditation. If it's not premeditated, it cannot be terrorism.
So if the investigation revealed that the Benghazi incident was a spontaneous protest that ended up resulting in the violent deaths of four American citizens, is there a special distinction for that? AlBell claimed that the President was trying to include events taking place in Cairo and elsewhere. In Cairo, protestors scaled a wall and tore down a flag. Would that qualify -- legally -- as an "act of terrorism" if it had been planned? Let's look at some code:

Title 18 of the United States Code (regarding criminal acts and criminal procedure) defines international terrorism as:

"[T]he term 'international terrorism' means activities that . . . involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; [and] appear to be intended . . . to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; . . . to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or . . . to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and [which] occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum."

I don't see anything about premeditation in there (might be hiding in the elipses, I guess). And going by that, it looks to me like we'd have to call the tearing down of that flag in Cairo (which clearly was a spontaneous reaction to that video trailer) a "terrorist act". Title 22 does mention "premeditation". Does Title 22 supercede Title 18? I mean, if we're going to be pedantic, let's also make sure we're right.

He spoke generically about terrorism, but did not actually label the attack itself as a terrorist attack.
And you've said that you don't have a problem with what he said at that point in time, presumably because you agree that at that point in time the degree to which it was planned versus spontaneous was not clear.

The administration's response was a train wreck of conflicting accounts and buck passing for a security failure of monumental proportions.
The incident itself was a train wreck of conflicting accounts. To the extent that there was a security failure, it was in fact a failure by the State Department, because it is that agency, and not the White House, that handles diplomatic security in foreign nations. That buck was passed to the President, and, in no uncertain terms, he accepted it.
 
My thought is that the parsimonious answer is the correct answer (as it usually is). He talked about terrorism because he was talking about Libya which was a possible or probable terrorist attack. We don't need to speculate as the explanation is coherent and fits all available evidence.

The point remains. Your claim requires the reader to ignore all context in Obama's speech.

Context and parsimony. If it hurts your case then ignore them. Of course that is dishonest but hey, winning an argument is far more important.
 
What's the big deal about using the word "terrorist" anyway? Does that somehow make the attack more evil or our outrage more justified?

It seems to me that many on the right are so caught up in their own hyperbole that they have lost all perspective on this issue. Suggesting that this attack may have been related to ongoing protests in the region has become, to them, a failure of epic proportions.
 
So if the investigation revealed that the Benghazi incident was a spontaneous protest that ended up resulting in the violent deaths of four American citizens, is there a special distinction for that?

No. That's just plain murder. But there IS a special distinction for terrorism, which is the point.

AlBell claimed

I don't really care what AlBell claimed. I don't pay him any attention.

And you've said that you don't have a problem with what he said at that point in time, presumably because you agree that at that point in time the degree to which it was planned versus spontaneous was not clear.

Yes. But it became clear far earlier than the administration did.

The incident itself was a train wreck of conflicting accounts. To the extent that there was a security failure, it was in fact a failure by the State Department, because it is that agency, and not the White House, that handles diplomatic security in foreign nations. That buck was passed to the President, and, in no uncertain terms, he accepted it.

How has he accepted it? By simply stating "I'm responsible"? Yeah, not terribly impressive. Until he starts being open about what went wrong (both before AND after the attacks), he's not doing anything more than mouthing platitudes.
 
I'd like to hear what specific negative repercussions the US has suffered from its citizens being unclear for 14 days as to what exactly happened prior to the Benghazi attack. Does anyone think that this intelligence/communication problem compare in severity to, say, the claim that Iraq was building WMD's?
 
Again, this was a totally unjustified attack and we should continue to hunt the perpetrators, but this "if you don't call it terrorist you are weak on terror" meme is just ridiculous.

I have yet to see a coherent answer to this.

"Terrorism" is not a magic word. I checked.
Yeah, I have to admit I was really taken aback by this silly red herring. It's probably the best example of "gotcha politics" I've seen in awhile. And yes, the game of gotcha is played on both sides for my ever "but you guys do it also" friends.

It doesn't make it right that many people are actually doubling down on this blatant case of it.
 
I'd like to hear what specific negative repercussions the US has suffered from its citizens being unclear for 14 days as to what exactly happened prior to the Benghazi attack. Does anyone think that this intelligence/communication problem compare in severity to, say, the claim that Iraq was building WMD's?
I could give a list of ideas but since I don't endorse them it could be argued a straw man.

So yeah, someone from the right, if this isn't simply a game of gotcha politics then answer the question, what were the specific negative repercussions? Or are you going with the every popular conspiracy theory that the Obama administration was trying to cover it up?
 
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But the distinction does not hinge on premeditation. Murder requires premeditation.

No it doesn't. Certain categories of murder do (it's a common requirement for 1st degree murder), but it's not part of the requirement for murder itself.
 
A blog post with anecdotes? Wow, that's some persuasive evidence right there, Al!
I haven't seen a published study yet.

Those comments are shared by our 2 GP's, 2 surgeons, an endocrinologist and a nephrologist; that is they will not be accepting new medicaid patients and may well not accept new medicare parients either.

I do agree 'not persuasive' ... for skeptics here.
 

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